Xi
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On a PBF and this came up.

The exact situation is here: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22267393#22267393

To summarize it:

Fenn has taken his first action and is strained out, 4/4S. He uses second action to attack a trooper (4 health). Trooper is also adjacent to another trooper.

He rolls 2 hits, 1 surge and adds a surge with Tac Display. Trooper rolls 1 block.

1 surge --> +1 Hit (infantry rifle)
1 surge --> recover 1 strain ( he is now 3/4 S).

2 damage to Trooper.

The question being debated is can Fenn do the following during this attack action?


Use 1 strain ( since he just recovered 1 strain from the 1 surge during this attack) for Havoc shot and apply Blast 1.

I believe he can from my reading of the RRG and posts on this forum and the forums. The Imperial says this is not a legal move.

Oh, the second question inherent in this problem is when is 1 strain recovered from the surge?

Is strain recovered the instant when the surge is used for strain recovery? So, immediately in Step 5 of the Attack sequence when surges are utilized?

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Jorgen Peddersen
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Yes, the surge would be spent and strain recovered in step 5. Thus, you could activate Havoc Shot during steps 6 or 7 and it would trigger.

The reasoning is that "Havoc Shot" activates while attacking, so you can choose any point in the attack when you want to use it.
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Clipper wrote:
Yes, the surge would be recovered in step 5. Thus, you could activate Havoc Shot during steps 6 or 7 and it would trigger.

The reasoning is that "Havoc Shot" activates while attacking, so you can choose any point in the attack when you want to use it.

+1

And yes since you spend it in step 5 logically you get it right that moment.

Love this question it had me thinking for a while.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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There is one entry in the RRG that might perhaps make me think otherwise, as the Recover keyword is stated to have the figure Recover after the attack... It makes no mention of non-keyword Recover effects, so it doesn't necessarily apply.

I will need to check if there is any wording on the Reference cards to definitively determine the timing of the Recover ability.
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Clipper wrote:
There is one entry in the RRG that might perhaps make me think otherwise, as the Recover keyword is stated to have the figure Recover after the attack... It makes no mention of non-keyword Recover effects, so it doesn't necessarily apply.

I will need to check if there is any wording on the Reference cards to definitively determine the timing of the Recover ability.

Reference cards? Excuse my ignorance but what are those?
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Pasi Ojala
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I have asked FFG but not received an answer to when is the Recover
ability be performed. The current interpretation is that it happens when it is triggered. (Edit: Confirmed)

The RRG says that Recover mb ability is performed after the attack. It says nothing about Recover
. However, Recovering strain is not a condition (or blast or cleave), which would tell us the timing.

I have thought that hero's
: recover 1
is performed immediately when it is triggered in the spend surges step. The Learn to Play seems to support this by saying (While performing an attack, a hero may spend up to 1
to recover 1
).

Edit:
Reference card wrote:
Recover: Remove the listed amount of damage or strain tokens from the figure or its Hero sheet.

(So, I'm not even fully convinced that the Recover mb example given in the Recover entry has that timing - after resolving the attack. It does seem conflicting with the Learn to Play and general surge ability timing.)


So yes, until said otherwise, Fenn can recover strain from surge, then suffer strain to trigger Havoc Shot. This is how it has been interpreted since the game was released.
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bravefencer wrote:
Reference cards? Excuse my ignorance but what are those?
The five cards that came with the game titled
- Reference: Keywords
- Reference: Massive
- Reference: Conditions
- Reference: Mobile / Frequently Overlooked Rules
- Reference: Attribute Tests
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a1bert wrote:

The RRG says that Recover mb ability is performed after the attack. It says nothing about Recover
. However, Recovering strain is not a condition (or blast or cleave), which would tell us the timing.

I have thought that
: Recover 1
is performed immediately when it is triggered in the spend surges step. The Learn to Play seems to support this by saying (While performing an attack, a hero may spend up to 1
to recover 1
).


The RRG says that a surge ability that relates to a keyword applies after the attack is resolved. It also says that Recover is a keyword, which is consistent with it also saying "S: Recover 1D" occurs after the attack resolves. Therefore "S: Recover 1St" also applies after the attack.

Unless one argues "spend up to 1Su to recover 1St" is not the same as "S: Recover 1St" (since recover with lowercase r might not be a keyword) then the strain is recovered after the attack. Even then, it would be strange if "S: Recover 1D," "S: Recover 1St," and "spend up to 1Su to recover 1St" have different timings, though possible I guess.

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reserved89 wrote:
The RRG says that a surge ability that relates to a keyword applies after the attack is resolved.
I only remember conditions as keywords. Could you point me to the right direction to find it? (Topic or page)

Attack wrote:
The keyword abilities Blast and Cleave, and any keyword that
causes a condition
, all require the target of the attack to suffer
one or more H to trigger.

Conditions wrote:
Conditions are sometimes used as keywords. When an attack
uses a condition as a keyword, the condition is applied using
the following rules:
...
- The condition is applied after the attack resolves.

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a1bert wrote:
reserved89 wrote:
The RRG says that a surge ability that relates to a keyword applies after the attack is resolved.
Could you point me to the right direction to find it? (Topic or page)

P24 under Surges in the RRG.

And the other references just in case anyone wants them:
P16 under Keywords in the RRG for Recover is a keyword;
P22 under Recover in the RRG for "S: Recover 1D" applies after the attack
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Great find, I stand corrected.
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There is one issue you haven't noticed yet, though.

There is a difference between:

Surge: Recover 1 strain.

and

A hero performing an attack may spend 1 surge to recover 1 strain.

The difference? The latter is not using Recover as a keyword. It is just a recovery effect. Note the lack of capital R.

This is a very important distinction and the rules are consistent that Recover as a keyword applies after the attack, but it makes no mention of abilities that allow you to recover.

Yes, you may say I'm being pedantic, but the same distinction exists between the Attack action and an attack.

As a hero's strain recovery ability is never used as a keyword ability in any of the places it is described, it would not follow the rules for occurring after the attack.
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Hmm. True. Recover as a keyword is written with a capital letter, while recover as an ability is lowercase.

I did mention Learn to Play, which uses "While", i.e. during attack. RRG would of course override that if it would mention it specifically.
Learn to Play wrote:
While performing an attack, a hero may spend up to 1
to recover 1
.

Hopefully Paul's queue gets shorter...
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a1bert wrote:
Hmm. True. Recover as a keyword is written with a capital letter, while recover as an ability is lowercase.

I did mention Learn to Play, which uses "While", i.e. during attack. RRG would of course override that if it would mention it specifically.
Learn to Play wrote:
While performing an attack, a hero may spend up to 1
to recover 1
.

Hopefully Paul's queue gets shorter...

I'm still waiting on a question sent in 2 weeks ago. Good luck with that. Half a year ago, I got answers within the day.
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Wow. After a year+, I thought for sure something so common and routine in the game would be crystal clear!

I can't believe we are discussing capital "R" versus lower case "r".

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Surely this question about Fenn and Havoc Shot/Strain recovery has come up before now?
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reserved89 wrote:
Surely this question about Fenn and Havoc Shot/Strain recovery has come up before now?

I have seen two threads. One here on BGG and on the community FFG forum. The question raised is not exactly this but discussion/answers dive into whether Fenn can do the above.

Both answers are under the premise that strain is instantly recovered, not after the attack Is resolved.

I'm curious if this scenario applies to other characters and their abilities? Who else has a "white attacking..." Ability that uses strain but not an action?
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reserved89 wrote:
Surely this question about Fenn and Havoc Shot/Strain recovery has come up before now?

It has, and the argument has gone nowhere. And I don't think anyone has received an answer from FFG.

We play that the surge for recovering strain is after the attack resolves, just like Surge: Recover 1 H.
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Asked and answered! FFG taking care of business.

Hi Xi,

The strain is recovered immediately when the surge is spent, which is to say, during step 5.

Thanks!

Paul Winchester
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
pwinchester@fantasyflightgames.com
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Hi Paul,

One thing I really wish FFG would add in their FAQ's is clarification around where cards/effects fall in which steps. The number of questions I see in both D2E and IA groups on here and the FFG boards where timing is questioned are numerous and sometimes conflicting. Google and board search engines are great but sometimes a pain if mid-game and you have to stop the flow of things to spend 15 minutes trawling the net to solve one query.

So pretty please with sugar on, could you have word with documentation elves and get them to put some flowcharts or similar together... please... pretty please

Simon

bravefencer wrote:
Asked and answered! FFG taking care of business.

Hi Xi,

The strain is recovered immediately when the surge is spent, which is to say, during step 5.

Thanks!

Paul Winchester
Game Developer
Fantasy Flight Games
pwinchester@fantasyflightgames.com
 
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sedgetone wrote:
One thing I really wish FFG would add in their FAQ's is clarification around where cards/effects fall in which steps.
There are very few abilities that can be performed at any step of the attack. Havoc Shot is one of the few.

Most while attacking or while defending abilities need to be performed during predefined steps according to whether they modify the dice pool, cause rerolls, add or remove symbols or accuracy, or use surges. I have made a list, but the number of abilities is very large, so I question the usefulness. (It also does not include agenda cards.)

Ping this thread and I can post the list.
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Timing (Mission/Attacker/Defender) for abilities from deployment cards, class cards, conditions and some items for the Campaign. See Timing from the second page of the Rules Reference Guide.

Special Situations Regarding Attacks wrote:
ยท Any ability that is resolved "while attacking" or "while defending" can be used at any point during the attack with the following exceptions:
-- An ability that adds dice to a dice pool can only be used immediately before step 2 of the attack.
-- An ability that allows a player to reroll dice can only be used during step 3 of the attack.
-- An ability that allows a player to modify die results can only be used during step 4 of the attack.


Attacks
1.Declare Target
* Mission/Core Rules
* Attacker
- Trick Shot (before declaring, for LoS)
- Target Acquired (before declaring, for LoS)
- Combat Spotter (for LoS)
- Extended Haft (Reach)
- Priority Target
- Ambush, Execute
- Practical Solutions
- Power Converter (if using Practical Solutions)
- Trench Fighter
- Vicious Strike
- Ferocity
- For the Cause!
- Adrenal Vapor
- Coordinated Attack
- Point Blank Shot
- Master Operative
- Mercenary Ties
- Overcharger, Vibrogenerator
- Battle Discipline
- Shock and Awe, Show of Force
- No Quarter
- Explosive Munitions (dice pool), Heavy Firepower (dice pool, +3dmg)
- Versatile Attack (dice pool), Exacting Strike (dice pool)
- Surprise Attack
- Falling Leaf
- Precise Strike (dice pool)
* Defender
- Take Cover
- Roll With It
- Decoy
- Quickdraw Holster
- Shadow Armor
* Other
- Overwatch
- Prey Upon Doubt, Oppression? step 4?
- Keep the Peace (friendly to defender)

2.Roll Dice
* Mission/Core Rules
- Focused (dice pool - before rolling)
* Attacker
- Front Line (before rolling)
- Arsenal, Epic Arsenal (dice pool - before rolling)
- Adaptive Weapons (dice pool - before rolling)
* Defender
- Cloaking Device (dice pool - before rolling)

3.Rerolls
* Mission/Core Rules
* Attacker
- Inspiring (Luke Skywalker)
- Resourceful, Gambit
- Deadly Precision
- Force Adept
- Lady Luck (all)
- Extra Ammunition
- Targeting Computer
- Squad Training
- Versatily Weaponry
- Strike Force, Assassins
* Defender
- Cower
- Resourceful, Gambit
- Foresight, Defensive Stance
- Trophy Armor
- Reinforced Helmet
- Assault Armor
- Armor Corps

4.Apply Modifiers
* Mission/Core Rules
- Hidden
- Weakened
* Attacker
- Havoc Shot with Veteran Prowess (to get +1dmg)
- Aim
- Fury
- Set Your Sights
- Clear-Minded
- Weapon Expert
- Gunslinger
- Cheap Shot (if Quick Draw)
- Unstoppable
- Military Efficiency
- Called Shot
- Target Acquired (if used in step 1.)
- Vibrobayonet
- Structural Weakness
- Mon Cala Special Forces (+1 Acc)
- Hunt Them Down
- Battle Vision
- Tactical Display, Balanced Hilt, Marksman Barrel, Extended Haft (Pierce 1), Spread Barrel, Shock Emitter, all innate +Acc and +1dmg etc.
- Scattergun, ACP Scattergun
- Contempt
- Combat Veterans, Shock Troopers
- Superior Augments, Experimental Arms
- Optimal Tactics
- Pinpoint Accuracy, Sharpshooters, Find the Weakness
- Embody the Force (exhaust to add hit)
- Lead from the Front
* Defender
- Protector, Sentinel, Distracting
- Cunning
- Lucky
- Slippery
- Duck and Weave
- Superior Positioning
- Wookiee Loyalty
- Military Efficiency
- Into the Fray
- Energy Shield
- Scout's Guidance
- Mon Cala Special Forces (evade)
- Improvised Cover
- Old Wounds
- Combat Coat, Laminate Armor, High-Impact Guard, Personal Shields
- Composite Plating
- Defensible
- Defensive
- Disposable
- Reactive Armor
- Knowledge of Attack
- True Shadow
- Covert Operative (convert Hidden to Block)
- Embody the Force (exhaust to add block)
* Other
- Create Opening
- Force Illusion (last chance so that Hidden affects this attack)
- Professional Aide

5.Spend Surges
* Mission/Core Rules
* Attacker
- Crushing Blow (last chance to activate)
- Field Surgeon (last chance to activate)
- Fell Swoop (last chance to activate)
- Study of Enemies (move recon token - does not affect attack pool, because happens after Apply Modifiers step)
- spend a surge to recover strain immediately (heroes, one per attack)
- actual spending of surges for surge abilities
* Defender

6.Check Accuracy
- If not enough accuracy, the attack misses.

7.Calculate & Apply Damage
* Mission/Core Rules
- If the attack misses, the target suffers 0 damage in this step.
* Attacker
- Havoc Shot (last chance to activate here! without Veteran Prowess.)
- Vibrosword (1
for Pierce 1 - last chance to activate here!)
- Intimidation
- Heavy Pressure
- Advance (friendly to attacker)
- Spectrum Scanner (friendly to att.)
- Mon Cala Special Forces (friendly to att.,recover/focused)
- Combat Momentum (friendly to attacker)
* Defender
- Combat Suit
- Last Stand
- Parting Shot
- Power to Shields (last chance here!)
- Field Surgeon (friendly to defender, lower part - interrupt)
- Miracle Worker (friendly to defender, instead of defeating)
- Executor, Vengeance, Forward Vengeance (friendly to defender)
- Noble Sacrifice (friendly to defender)

After attack Resolves
* Mission/Core Rules
- Blast, Cleave, Condition keywords
* Imperial
- Recover damage (keyword)
- Arc Blasters
* Rebel
- Fell Swoop
- Recover damage (keyword)
- Opportunist
- Suppressive Fire (if Havoc Shot used)
- Sidewinder
- Get Cocky
- Brutal Cleave, Rampage, Staggering Blow
- Snap Kick
- No Escape
- Execute
- Stay Down
- Return Fire (Han Solo)
- Rage
- Figurehead
- Adrenaline Rush
- Quick As A Whip
* Rebel (Other)
- Jeswandi Training
- Fuel Injection
- Peacemaker, Life Debt
- Covert Operative (no damage suffered gives Hidden)

Edit: Made a new thread for this, check for updates here:
Ability Resolution order during attacks
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Pasi, this is extremely helpful.

Yes, its a long ass list and still not comprehensive of everything. However, it gives so many points of reference/examples for each stage. If something is not on here, it would be easy to reference and see where it could fit.

 
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