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Axis Empires: Totaler Krieg!» Forums » Rules

Subject: combat shift rss

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Greig Goodfellow
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Understand marines ability to have a shift from beachhead or across other water hex sides. What is interp., if a combat includes marine from BH and guys already on shore? My opponent feels he gets the shift still although I think that is against reason for shift in first place.
posted under DS as well.
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César Moreno
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I think 4.2.3.6 is perfectly clear.

"If a supplied, Blitz-enabled marine unit attacks across a Beachhead,
Strait or All-Sea hexside, the attacker receives a one-column shift to
the right."

Also remember:

"While reading the rules, do not infer or imagine more to a rule
than is stated in it. When in doubt interpret strictly."

You could also ask your opponent to quote the rule giving marines a column shift when attacking across land hexsides.

Edit: I misunderstood the question, Marc Hanna got the right answer.
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Greig Goodfellow
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The rule giving the marine the shift as quoted is the reason he feels he still gets the shift. For other hex side rules there are conditions made to use the lower of terrain benefits like from across river instead of mountain. So in our case with units coming across a clear hex side and a bh with marines he is holding for the clear attack to completely take away the bh side but still use the shift for the marine.
 
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Marc Hanna
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It IS the reason he still gets a shift. There is no feeling involved, it's a rule. See my post on DS for clarification. The disadvantage will be that marines will take any casualties and have to roll delay.
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Uwe A. Redjac
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There is only one thing that may speak against getting a benefit from the marine shift in this circumstance and that is the Clarification under 4.2.3.6

But it remains a far shot.

Quote:
4.2.3.6 Marines

If a supplied, Blitz-enabled marine unit attacks across a Beachhead, Strait or All-Sea hexside, the attacker receives a one-column shift to the right.

Clarification:The defender still receives his column shift for the terrain. So, if a marine unit attacked across an All-Sea hexside, the net shift would be one to the left.
That clarification may make it sound as if marines do not so much confer a column shift, but rather negate one terrain column shift caused by attacking across their Beachhead, Strait or All-Sea hexside. The result then would then just be that the terrain column shifts for Beachhead / Strait / All Sea hexsides become slightly less harsh but still need to compete with all other terrain hexside shifts for whether it matters or not.

Quote:
4.2.3.8 Terrain …
Important:
… only one hexside shift is applicable, and it must be the lowest hexside shift out of all the different hexside terrain types
The problem is though: The rules does not explicitly sayBlitz-enabled marine units negate one terrain shift caused by a Beachhead, Strait or All-Sea hexside”. And the shift for marines is not explicitly classified as a terrain shift either. Therefore – with the rules as written – I also got to say the marine shift is not governed by 4.2.3.8 and therefore counts on top of all else.

Now: It may have been the intent of the rule that marines only negate one terrain column shift caused by Beachheads, Straits or All-Sea hexsides. One of the designers may or may not shed some light on that. But still: Even if that was their intent, then the rules as written do not convey it. So without some kind of errata to that effect your opponent indeed can ignore the terrain column shifts due to the Beachhead hexside (because more favourable hexside shifts supercede them 4.2.3.8) and still claim the marine shift in his favour (as that shift is not a terrain shift).

Maybe Thomas likes to weigh in with regards to the rule's intent.
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Marc Hanna
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Good point, why else the clarification; why is a clarification needed at all, except to illustrate a limitation for marine shift effectiveness? Of course terrain shifts apply in the usual fashion, right?

Yet, no other combat shift rule is described as a terrain 'reduction', so consistency of design would indicate that marine shifts are not some kind of terrain adjustment. Further, why penalize an attack just because marines are thrown in on a flanking maneuver, while other units are attacking along the shore? That makes no sense either. I see it as a specialized attack during blitz, similar to armor shock, with the consequence of possibly taking a hit and delay on the marines as a result.
 
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Uwe A. Redjac
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Honosbinda wrote:
Yet, no other combat shift rule is described as a terrain 'reduction', so consistency of design would indicate that marine shifts are not some kind of terrain adjustment.
Correct. Hence, the rules as written do not subject the marine shift to 4.2.3.8 and thus it always counts - independently of whether the shifts for Beachheads, Straits and All-Sea hexsides matter or are left irrelevant due to other units joining the attack from more favourable terrain.

Honosbinda wrote:
Good point, why else the clarification; why is a clarification needed at all, except to illustrate a limitation for marine shift effectiveness? Of course terrain shifts apply in the usual fashion, right?
Exactly my thought - why that clarification? Two possible answers:

ONE: There is not much to it, it is really only a kind reminder of terrain still playing a role (including water hexside shifts) as already told under 4.2.3.8.

OR TWO: There is something more to it like 'marine shifts are supposed to only negate water hexside terrain shifts'. But for the latter, the designer would need to weigh in some more, the rules as written do not support that notion.

Honosbinda wrote:
Why penalize an attack just because marines are thrown in on a flanking maneuver, while other units are attacking along the shore?
Well, marines are not really penalized if their shift were just to cancel a 'terrain hexside shift due to water'. Their shift then may of course become irrelevant at certain times, but I would not really call that a 'penalty'. It is more a situation of throwing more than necessary into an attack. Like an armor unit during Blitz when you are already at 9-1 odds.


 
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Marc Hanna
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But they could, here is an example:

NO Marine 6 factors:
6 factor inf unit attacks a 2 factor unit in the blitz phase on open ground -- odds are 3:1.

with Marine, 6 factors

2 factor marine attacks on a -2 BH marker to supplement the attack of a 4 factor unit during blitz. odds with marine shift penalized by -2 (in spite of 4.2.3.8) BH are now 2:1 if the defender 'still receives his column shift for terrain'. Marine unit has to take casualties

Or -- marine units supplements the attack with a +1 shift since there BH terrain shift negated by onshore unit. Odds: 4:1.

2:1 vs a 4:1. substantial depending on this rule interpretation. Hence, it seems unlikely that the such a shift in these circumstances should penalize the marines.

[sorry for typo edits]

 
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Uwe A. Redjac
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Something seems off with your examples, I cannot follow them proper (yet).

Honosbinda wrote:
NO Marine 6 factors:
6 factor inf unit attacks a 2 factor unit in the blitz phase on open ground -- odds are 3:1.
From where? Not from a BH it seems. But clarity is key with such examplesh.

Quote:
with Marine, 6 factors
Should that then now not be 8 factors if you add them to the 6 above? Or does it refer to the following example? I really can not connect that one sentence well with the rest of your post.

Honosbinda wrote:
2 factor marine attacks on a -2 BH marker to supplement the attack of a 4 factor unit during blitz.
Where do these 4 factors attack from? From land? Or are they on the BH too?

Honosbinda wrote:
odds with marine shift penalized by -2 (in spite of 4.2.3.8)BH are now 2:1 if the defender 'still receives his column shift for terrain'. Marine unit has to take casualties.
As said: Do these 4 factors attack from land? Then the Beachhead terrain shift does not factor in anymore due to 4.2.3.8. in any case and the attack is at 4:1 odds with the rules as written. Or 3:1 odds if marines were only to negate a seaside terrain shift (rules as not written).

My problem now is: What do you base your calculations on? Rules as written? Rules as interpreted differently (i.e. not written)?

Or were these 4 factors also on the BH? Then the attack is indeed at 2:1 in any case (rules as written or as not written) - like it has always been.

Honosbinda wrote:
Or -- marine units supplements the attack with a +1 shift since there BH terrain shift negated by onshore unit. Odds: 4:1.
My guess by now is you always meant the 4 factors to not be on the BH. And that you calculated first with the rules-as-not-written (but then: How comes you arrive at 2:1 odds when I only arrive at 3:1?) and only at the very end switched to rules-as-written to arrive at 4:1 for comparison purposes.

But it is a problem if I need to guess the exact nature of the example as well as what rules / alternative rules you calculate them with.

Honosbinda wrote:
2:1 vs a 4:1. substantial depending on this rule interpretation. Hence, it seems unlikely that the such a shift in these circumstances should penalize the marines.
As said: All I arrive at is a difference of 3:1 (marines only negate one seaside terrain shift) vs. 4:1 (marines add one genuine shift as in the rules written), i.e. one shift. Which seems to be the exact difference Greig Goodfellow and his opponent seem to disagree about.

Can you maybe repost your examples again, point out where these non marine facors exactly come from in each case and (more important) which reading of the rules you use in each of your calculations?

Got to head off to work now though
 
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Marc Hanna
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sorry, don't have time to hash through all that. If I have time to post a diagram, I will. But it's simply a matter of counting shifts in each case.

But I'm sure it's clear to you mentally that in one case, if the marines must suffer a net -1 shift attacking from a BH while the other unit attacks from an adjacent interior hex, but in the other, they add a net +1 shift, then if the base odds are 3:1, it's a 2:1 rather than a 4:1.
 
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Uwe A. Redjac
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Honosbinda wrote:
But I'm sure it's clear to you mentally that in one case, if the marines must suffer a net -1 shift attacking from a BH while the other unit attacks from an adjacent interior hex, ...
That is not correct. In that case the negative terrain hexside shift for attacking across a BH hexside (be it -2 or -1) is always ignored due to the '0' terrain hexside shift for also attacking across a land hexside.

Quote:
4.2.3.8 Terrain …
Important:
… only one hexside shift is applicable, and it must be the lowest hexside shift out of all the different hexside terrain types.
'Lower' meaning here 'less of a shift' as is confirmed by the example under 4.2.3.8. My guess is you arrived at the 2:1 odds because you thought the -2 (or -1*) hexside shift supercedes the 0 hexside shift. But that is not the case. Quote from the rules:

Quote:
Example: A defender in a clear hex being attacked from across a river hexside in one direction, and a mountain hexside in another, receives only one shift to the left.
So the terrain hexside shift will always be 0 in the examples no matter which way one wants to read the rules about marines. Which always leads to raw odds of 3:1 in your examples.

The question open between Greig Goodfellow and his opponent is only: Does a +1 shift apply due to the marines on top of this, bumping the odds up to 4:1? And the answer is: The rules as written support this bump. The marine shift is not a hexside terrain shift so it counts on top.

Only the rules read as 'marines merely negate one sea hexside terrain shift' would leave it at 3:1. But for that interpretation one only has the clarification under 4.2.3.6 as support, which I find too weak to make a valid point.


* -1 only if the rules meant "marines negate one sea hexside terrain shift"
 
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Marc Hanna
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in the case of the OP, please recall the discussion was if the application of ignoring the hexside terrain is applicable (see above, where I wrote in parentheses: in spite of 4.2.3.8)to the marines in this case.

Since you missed this point in my explanation and/or it wasn't clear to you (which I am sure now that it was not, given your intelligence), that's why you are going on about this. But there is no need to argue the point; if indeed 4.2.8.3 applies, then the marines get a +1 shift anyway, along with zero shifts for the BH, netting a +1 shift (as long as there is inland support and no other terrain shifts).

I don't need to be reminded in detail of applying 4.2.3.8 here, because the assumption on my end is that this rule is to be ignored for marines in the case that the defender always gets the shift, no matter what. As indicated in the so-called clarification.

I hope this wraps up the discussion of minutia here. I am going to play it that 4.2.3.8 applies, there is no shift for the BH, and the net effect, in blitz is that the marines get the shift +1 anyway, making the odds 4:1 in my example.

 
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Thomas Prowell
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He does get the shift.
 
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Uwe A. Redjac
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thomasprowell wrote:
He does get the shift.
Yeah - I would have been surprised if the clarification under 4.2.3.6 had had some deeper meaning.

Still: Don't you think it may be better to just omit that clarification?
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Marc Hanna
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I have to agree with Uwe -- I'm not sure I see anywhere that the clarification adds more understanding but rather instead potential confusion.
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