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Subject: ChitChat About Werewolf rss

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Kevin
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The_Rorab wrote:
madelineb wrote:
Let's talk about auxen.

A lot of the discussions I've seen comparing BGG to other werewolf/mafia sites point out that aux roles are kind of part of our house style. They allow intricate claim wars and slightly diminish the use of seer views. But there are some downsides associated with them, though. One is LHLV--in situations where there are X evils and X goods alive, most non-aux rolesets would just be like "okay, evil wins," because all those evils would be maxes. Another issue is that outed auxes often have little to do, but won't be lynched; Vanderscamp has touched on this in his replacement stuff, and also had some good points in his mod chats.

Vanderscamp May 14, 05:01 PM: it's one of the only roles where you can play as well as you possibly can but still lose the game

So, to those of you who like auxen/rolesets with them, why? What advantages do they bring that I maybe don't see, or take for granted?

My standpoint will be completely different really to what probably will come as explanations and isn't really an explanation of why I think auxes should or shouldn't be in our games over maxes. I just really find playing aux more fun than max and if wolf was the only way of being evil, I think I'd have less fun playing Werewolf than I do.

They let me be evil, do all the fun evil things like CC things, whilst not having to be stressed out by longevity.
I'm with you Rorab
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Van isn't wrong though, you can sometimes play as well as you can as aux and it just be a footnote of a game where your wolves don't manage to turn up. But I'm in defence of auxes solely because I find them fun =)

Regarding this - most good roles can play very well and not help their team win too. It's the nature of it being a team game. With exception of Seer/Hunter/Vig - no good can win the game on their own. Even a good with extremely accurate reads still needs to work with their team to execute their reads.

Auxes can't win the game by being the last evil alive - true. But auxes CAN win games for their team.
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Patrick Hill
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We have a community that has developed aux roles and been taught to use them well to evil's advantage. I always get sad when I put aux roles in live WW games, because no one knows how to play them (unless they are from this community.) They just sit around and maybe eat a lynch, which is sort of helpful.

I think aux roles are fun. If I'm evil, I'd much rather play aux. I've developed the same love for villager on the good side.
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Day (she/her)
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I come from the other side on this, I fucking hate being Aux Evil, I feel absolutely useless and 10/10 times want to be Wolf if I'm Evil.

That said, I think they make the game a lot more interesting. Wolves are worried about dying and are less likely to make plays that are high-risk/high-reward in my experience. When I play at ww.es, none of the players over there take risks, the game is like a logic puzzle based on what roles would be expected to do. Some of that is the type of roles they use (trackers/witnesses galore, loads more special roles, multiple evil teams), but a lot of it is that the Evils are just trying to fit in and not rock the boat.

I mean, I learnt to play ww here, so auxes have always been part of my ww world, because that's how I learnt the game, but I find myself missing them whenever I'm trying to create rolesets for people who don't play with them, because I find them incredibly useful balancing tools.
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BerenCamlost wrote:
We have a community that has developed aux roles and been taught to use them well to evil's advantage. I always get sad when I put aux roles in live WW games, because no one knows how to play them (unless they are from this community.) They just sit around and maybe eat a lynch, which is sort of helpful.

I think aux roles are fun. If I'm evil, I'd much rather play aux. I've developed the same love for villager on the good side.

I feel like a lot of the problems with newer people dont understand what to do as an aux. "I don't want to die." "How can me dying help my team." As well as planning ahead for what role to potentially claim, and when it is helpful to claim.

It's tricky, and learning how to play aux comes from experience and you have to be engaged with it.
 
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Smugs wrote:
I come from the other side on this, I fucking hate being Aux Evil, I feel absolutely useless and 10/10 times want to be Wolf if I'm Evil.

That said, I think they make the game a lot more interesting. Wolves are worried about dying and are less likely to make plays that are high-risk/high-reward in my experience. When I play at ww.es, none of the players over there take risks, the game is like a logic puzzle based on what roles would be expected to do. Some of that is the type of roles they use (trackers/witnesses galore, loads more special roles, multiple evil teams), but a lot of it is that the Evils are just trying to fit in and not rock the boat.

I mean, I learnt to play ww here, so auxes have always been part of my ww world, because that's how I learnt the game, but I find myself missing them whenever I'm trying to create rolesets for people who don't play with them, because I find them incredibly useful balancing tools.
Yeah agreed. I find aux roles miserable becaus I'm not good at solving the game and as a villager it's not a big deal but as aux, I'm basically just a huge drain on my team and it feels bad. Basically the only option is to try to eat a lynch.

It is impressive watching people play them well though!
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I like being a wolf more than an aux.

I think the inclusion of aux roles does add some additional complexity to strategy, but I also think it can produce more awkward situations and maybe unfair results at times.

This is just the ripples of adding addition complexity in a role that sort of exists in between the two poles (including the parity element)
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Perhaps our use of auxen is part of our magic then? Zero-aux is fun but I do much prefer games with at least one, and I oh so dearly love playing aux - especially sorceror. (How about / Can I get a game with multiple sorc's and low-medium posting?)

"aux" is a sucky word though ...

... or is it?? Urbandictionary has this:

"The "Aux" at the party is the owner of the music device currently plugged into the auxiliary cable, thus controlling the parties groove."

Sounds about right!
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Ryan Gatti
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I think having a wider variety of roles can make playing Villagers more interesting as well (not necessarily better for the game... but flexibility and complexity open more options for non-standard means of playing any role).

Too many Auxes and inconsistent Aux variants often muddy games until they are played enough to balance out the unpredictable nuances they create.
 
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Farren Bronaugh
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GrimJester wrote:
(How about / Can I get a game with multiple sorc's and low-medium posting?)

Nothing will probably come of this, but just for laughs - how do you define Sorcerer, for purposes of this role-set?
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I find anything that adds lots of varying motivations makes each game more about itself and not just about endless meta reads based on wording and grammar. =)
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Well that's why I ended up more interested in non-WW games than the WW grind.
 
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auxen are fun. I like the cultist myself.

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Farren wrote:
GrimJester wrote:
(How about / Can I get a game with multiple sorc's and low-medium posting?)

Nothing will probably come of this, but just for laughs - how do you define Sorcerer, for purposes of this role-set?
The usual, views for seers. And if there's aux seers that view for aux evils then sorcerers see them too. Regardless, they don't know anyone, no cultistry.

1 seer, 2 aux seer, 3 sorc's, 3 wolves, 8 villagers, fun!
 
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Perversely I'd like to see a multiple-mimics game. At least three.
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3 seers
4 sorcs
4 mimics
4 toughs
no reveal
majority rules
and 4 bus drivers
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Farren Bronaugh
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Poor Mimics. Robbed of their chance to do what they do best.
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Too many, or too powerful, auxes can also be a problem for a game design. If the village leaves them alive then they contribute to vote control or use their powers, but if they get lynched the village is losing parity clicks. Tough or brutal auxes are particularly nasty.

A few veterans will remember the game where we lynched evil every day for eight days straight and lost.

My games often had no auxes, or only things like cubs that promote to maxes. When I did use auxes, I usually had a rule that made them count for parity so long as a wolf was still alive.
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BlackSheep wrote:
Too many, or too powerful, auxes can also be a problem for a game design. If the village leaves them alive then they contribute to vote control or use their powers, but if they get lynched the village is losing parity clicks. Tough or brutal auxes are particularly nasty.

A few veterans will remember the game where we lynched evil every day for eight days straight and lost.

My games often had no auxes, or only things like cubs that promote to maxes. When I did use auxes, I usually had a rule that made them count for parity so long as a wolf was still alive.

That parity count seems like a good idea to prevent LHLV races actually.
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Kevin
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Smugs wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:
Too many, or too powerful, auxes can also be a problem for a game design. If the village leaves them alive then they contribute to vote control or use their powers, but if they get lynched the village is losing parity clicks. Tough or brutal auxes are particularly nasty.

A few veterans will remember the game where we lynched evil every day for eight days straight and lost.

My games often had no auxes, or only things like cubs that promote to maxes. When I did use auxes, I usually had a rule that made them count for parity so long as a wolf was still alive.

That parity count seems like a good idea to prevent LHLV races actually.
It wouldn't work in the fast fiver though for instance where game sees sorc need to decide between wolf/Hunter.
 
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I definitely think it makes mores sense for knowledgeable auxes who would always vote "right".

Or, to get crazier, you could have an aux that guesses their team every night, and they count for parity the next day if they are 100% correct! But it'd break down at F3, so that's an issue. But the idea is fun.
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RoyalApe wrote:
Smugs wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:
Too many, or too powerful, auxes can also be a problem for a game design. If the village leaves them alive then they contribute to vote control or use their powers, but if they get lynched the village is losing parity clicks. Tough or brutal auxes are particularly nasty.

A few veterans will remember the game where we lynched evil every day for eight days straight and lost.

My games often had no auxes, or only things like cubs that promote to maxes. When I did use auxes, I usually had a rule that made them count for parity so long as a wolf was still alive.

That parity count seems like a good idea to prevent LHLV races actually.
It wouldn't work in the fast fiver though for instance where game sees sorc need to decide between wolf/Hunter.

Yeah, I guess, but you can implement as to where it makes sense.
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Smugs wrote:
RoyalApe wrote:
Smugs wrote:
BlackSheep wrote:
Too many, or too powerful, auxes can also be a problem for a game design. If the village leaves them alive then they contribute to vote control or use their powers, but if they get lynched the village is losing parity clicks. Tough or brutal auxes are particularly nasty.

A few veterans will remember the game where we lynched evil every day for eight days straight and lost.

My games often had no auxes, or only things like cubs that promote to maxes. When I did use auxes, I usually had a rule that made them count for parity so long as a wolf was still alive.

That parity count seems like a good idea to prevent LHLV races actually.
It wouldn't work in the fast fiver though for instance where game sees sorc need to decide between wolf/Hunter.

Yeah, I guess, but you can implement as to where it makes sense.

I definitely agree with the general thought. Just wanting to show situations where it would be counter to general set design.
 
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I used to really like auxes but I'm liking them less over time.

The premise of the role is basically "you are useless for your team's win condition so you have to come up with a way to do something active for your team" which is a really good concept in theory, but in practice it turns out to be not so fun to play for the vast majority of the game.
All of the best aux games I've played have the same thing in common, I become outed by like the end of D2 and then spend the rest of the game either dead or doing nothing.
I think they're probably good for introducing players to werewolf, but then they become an active negative in terms of team evil coming up with creative strategies, because often it's just correct for wolves to leave claims for their auxes. Yes, you can claim things as wolf of course, but I think for the most part it discourages creativity and makes games less variable. This is a more minor point but I think not a commonly thought one?

The major downside I have with them is the swinginess of wolves NKing auxes.
You really can't balance games around anything other than assuming wolves will not NK any auxes, because there's nothing for the most part that good can do to achieve a result of wolves NKing auxes, so it's always just unfair for good if wolves happen to not nk any auxes but the game is balanced around it happening some of the time. But the problem is that it's not really possible either for a wolf team that's playing well to be able to guarantee that they won't nk any auxes either. The swing with NKing an aux is a lot higher than NKing a GS or not.
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I'm not strongly against them though and I have no real problem with them being in games.
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I've moved in the direction of making all auxes cultists or at least giving them some solid start info. I like playing informed auxes.
 
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