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Subject: Playdeck: Ties in the online version rss

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Sylvain Martel
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In the "good to know" category: The playdeck version of TS won't allow a game to end in a tie, so right now it's a "US win ties" ruling until they get confirmation from GMT on how ties are handled in tournaments.

Good to know for people thinking a tie won't register a lost in their stats. It will if playing USSR.

Quote:
We don't want games to end in ties.
The current tiebreaker is "USA wins ties", but that's a placeholder.
I'll need to consult with GMT on how they handle ties when they run tournaments at conventions.

http://playdek.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/1231-wargam...
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Alex Drazen
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More complicated is that people view the ties differently.

Designers have ruled that if both players hold a scoring card, US wins.

Most people feel that a Wargames ending requires you to have 1 VP or else the tie goes to the person who did not play Wargames.

Final scoring ties on the ACTS ladder advance the US player, but it's considered arbitrary.

Personally I always thought the China Card should be 1½ VP in Final Scoring, since it is a clean, simple, easy to calculate tiebreaker, but that's just my own opinion.
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Michael Valentine

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alexdrazen wrote:
Most people feel that a Wargames ending requires you to have 1 VP or else the tie goes to the person who did not play Wargames.

I guess I missed the memo.
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Alex Drazen
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MichaelVal wrote:
alexdrazen wrote:
Most people feel that a Wargames ending requires you to have 1 VP or else the tie goes to the person who did not play Wargames.

I guess I missed the memo.

I'm referring specifically to tournament rules where a winner is necessary.
 
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H Sparks
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alexdrazen wrote:
Personally I always thought the China Card should be 1½ VP in Final Scoring, since it is a clean, simple, easy to calculate tiebreaker, but that's just my own opinion.

I never heard of that one, but that's pretty good.
 
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Sylvain Martel
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alexdrazen wrote:
Designers have ruled that if both players hold a scoring card, US wins.

Playdeck indicated that they indeed implemented that rule, referring to the TS FAQ.

Insane the amount of threads/faqs they must have gone through to get a final ruleset.
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Max DuBoff
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A tie is a tie. Anything else is wrong. If the game ends and the score is at 0, it's pretty simple. How hard would it be for the stats to accommodate draws?

In elimination rounds of tournaments (i.e. not in Swiss rounds), I've seen draws broken by seeding (e.g. top seed advances) or simply rolling a die. That's up to the tournament organizer to decide, however, not Playdek, particularly when no one's playing tournaments on the program yet.
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H Sparks
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MD1616 wrote:
A tie is a tie. Anything else is wrong. If the game ends and the score is at 0, it's pretty simple. How hard would it be for the stats to accommodate draws?

In elimination rounds of tournaments (i.e. not in Swiss rounds), I've seen draws broken by seeding (e.g. top seed advances) or simply rolling a die. That's up to the tournament organizer to decide, however, not Playdek, particularly when no one's playing tournaments on the program yet.

No. no. no. Capitalism and Communism cannot co-exist.
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Carlo Patek
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game_monkey wrote:

No. no. no. Capitalism and Communism cannot co-exist.

"Hasta the imperialism, siempre!" ?
 
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Christopher Yaure
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MD1616 wrote:
In elimination rounds of tournaments (i.e. not in Swiss rounds), I've seen draws broken by seeding (e.g. top seed advances) or simply rolling a die.

What a horrible practice!
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Michael Kiefte
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actuaryesquire wrote:
MD1616 wrote:
In elimination rounds of tournaments (i.e. not in Swiss rounds), I've seen draws broken by seeding (e.g. top seed advances) or simply rolling a die.

What a horrible practice!

Why not just call it one-half point each like in chess?
 
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Christopher Yaure
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mkiefte wrote:
actuaryesquire wrote:
MD1616 wrote:
In elimination rounds of tournaments (i.e. not in Swiss rounds), I've seen draws broken by seeding (e.g. top seed advances) or simply rolling a die.

What a horrible practice!

Why not just call it one-half point each like in chess?


Max specifically pointed out this was for elimination rounds, not swiss rounds.
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LC
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mkiefte wrote:


Why not just call it one-half point each like in chess?

Because they are elimination rounds...
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Michael Kiefte
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Lawcomic wrote:

Because they are elimination rounds...

There's got to be better ways to do this.

After a tie, play the Late-War Scenario.
Or play to 10 VPs instead of 20.

Or how about the China Card counts as 1/2 VP.
 
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LC
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mkiefte wrote:
Lawcomic wrote:

Because they are elimination rounds...

There's got to be better ways to do this.

After a tie, play the Late-War Scenario.
Or play to 10 VPs instead of 20.

Or how about the China Card counts as 1/2 VP.

Doesn't it already count as a VP at the end?
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Riku Riekkinen
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US advances on ties is used at WBC.

Higher seed advances was on wargameroom (though then higher seed is counted from games actually played in that tournament, not in some general ranking)

In both cases the tie is still a tie when it gets reported to AREA.
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Max DuBoff
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actuaryesquire wrote:
MD1616 wrote:
In elimination rounds of tournaments (i.e. not in Swiss rounds), I've seen draws broken by seeding (e.g. top seed advances) or simply rolling a die.

What a horrible practice!

Riku Riekkinen wrote:
US advances on ties is used at WBC.

Higher seed advances was on wargameroom (though then higher seed is counted from games actually played in that tournament, not in some general ranking)

In both cases the tie is still a tie when it gets reported to AREA.

Yes, as Riku notes, this was for the WGR leagues, and the seeding was based on a full 16-game season, so it's not like it was particularly random. I didn't have a problem with it in that case. A die roll is frustrating as well.

I don't like using the China Card as a tiebreaker because it's already worth something and it's clearly not meant to be worth more. As bad as a die roll is to break the tie, I consider that better than using China.

Really, there's no good answer. Although it's obviously not a happy situation for USSR, I don't have an issue with just saying that the US advances on a tie as long as it's clearly stated beforehand (as it was for WBC).
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LC
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How about randomly selecting a score card, and whoever has the higher score there wins. In the event there is still a tie, repeat. If all score cards are somehow tied, then the winner is determined by a pie eating competition.
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David Hubbard
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Fascinating to see a question I was about to post already answered on BGG. Just finished an online game of TS on Playek. I'm USSR, and getting beaten up in most continents. It's Turn 10 and -3 to USSR. I headline OPEC to take it to -6, and Coup on AR1 to take Defcon to 2. My opponent does some stuff in Europe to take him close to Control in that continent. Feeling pleased with myself, I play Wargames to take score track to 0, anticipating a draw. Playdek awards game to my opponent. Now I know.
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Max DuBoff
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Lawcomic wrote:
How about randomly selecting a score card, and whoever has the higher score there wins. In the event there is still a tie, repeat. If all score cards are somehow tied, then the winner is determined by a pie eating competition.

That incentivizes dominating more regions, which isn't necessarily better in game terms (i.e. it's designed so that scoring more in fewer regions can be just as good as scoring less in more regions, and it would mess up the whole system to change that).
 
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LC
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MD1616 wrote:
Lawcomic wrote:
How about randomly selecting a score card, and whoever has the higher score there wins. In the event there is still a tie, repeat. If all score cards are somehow tied, then the winner is determined by a pie eating competition.

That incentivizes dominating more regions, which isn't necessarily better in game terms (i.e. it's designed so that scoring more in fewer regions can be just as good as scoring less in more regions, and it would mess up the whole system to change that).

True, but if you are playing to "win" the tie, then you'll likely be beat making it a non-issue.

It just seems less "arbitrary" than a die roll. Even though it more or less is.
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Jay Sachs
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MD1616 wrote:
I don't like using the China Card as a tiebreaker because it's already worth something and it's clearly not meant to be worth more. As bad as a die roll is to break the tie, I consider that better than using China.

I thought the proposal was to reduce the China card to 1/2 a VP. And that seems not too bad to me. Playing the China card doesn't cause a 2VP swing, but costs you a tie breaker. Seems reasonable to me.
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Ben Kyo
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I like the idea of the China card being worth 0.5.

Anyway, are there any solid stats on the percentage of games drawn?

All the discussion of balance and win ratios seems to tally up to 100%, like in the recent thread about favourite sides. Is that because the percentage of drawn games is too low to have an impact?

I suppose that even if such stats were available, all the situations in which Wargames would have been played by the US for the win wouldn't be factored in, so in any case it will be hard to gauge the impact of such a change.
 
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Max DuBoff
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Benkyo wrote:
I like the idea of the China card being worth 0.5.

Anyway, are there any solid stats on the percentage of games drawn?

All the discussion of balance and win ratios seems to tally up to 100%, like in the recent thread about favourite sides. Is that because the percentage of drawn games is too low to have an impact?

I suppose that even if such stats were available, all the situations in which Wargames would have been played by the US for the win wouldn't be factored in, so in any case it will be hard to gauge the impact of such a change.

If I had to guess, I'd say 1-1.5% of games are drawn.
 
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King in Green
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I would suggest that China is worth 1.5 VP as you can always play it to break a battleground for at least a 1VP swing if you have it, and China seems like it should be at least as valuable as any other battleground.
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