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Subject: Can you activate Foresight even if you can't re-roll? rss

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Craig S.
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HK droids attack Diala and force a re-roll of her white die. Can she still pay for and activate Foresight to get the block from Defensive Stance even though her white die has already been re-rolled and can't be re-rolled again?
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I'd say yes. Rerolling the die is an effect, not a condition on activating the ability. The only conditions are that you spend the strain and you are defending.

So yes, she cannot reroll the die again, but she can activate the ability to get the extra benefit of Defensive Stance.
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Pasi Ojala
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Exactly. Do as much as you can. You can't reroll the die, but you can add the block.
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Craig S.
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Clipper wrote:
I'd say yes. Rerolling the die is an effect, not a condition on activating the ability. The only conditions are that you spend the strain and you are defending.

So yes, she cannot reroll the die again, but she can activate the ability to get the extra benefit of Defensive Stance.

I agree. This sounds right to me, but is there a passage in the rules or a ruling that might support this? Our IP doesn't agree.
 
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There are probably better-suited ones, but the first one that shows that you don't need to be able to perform everything to be able to select options: Re: FFG unofficial answers to rules questions thread - read first post for instructions.

RRG, Abilities wrote:
Abilities can have one or more requirements. If the requirements cannot be met, the ability cannot be performed.
* Some abilities have costs which must be paid in order to resolve the ability. Here is a list of the different types of ability costs:
--
: These abilities appear in the campaign. The hero must suffer the listed amount of
(strain) without exceeding his endurance in order to use this ability.

Foresight wrote:
1
: Use while defending to reroll one defense die.
1
is the cost of the ability. While defending is the trigger / requirement. To reroll one defense die is the ability.

Also note that Defensive Stance triggers when using Foresight, not when Diala rerolls a defense die.

For another example, Gaarkhan is allowed to Charge, even if he can't perform an attack after moving spaces upto his speed.

In general, if there are prerequisites to using abilities, they must be explicitly specified.
 
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SM Halcyon
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I am curious as to why she can't re-roll the die to begin with?
 
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Craig S.
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smhalcyon wrote:
I am curious as to why she can't re-roll the die to begin with?

Because it had already been re-rolled by the attacker. Once a die gets re-rolled, it is "locked".
 
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SM Halcyon
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Ahh, missed that in the RRG.
 
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In the Gaarkhan example, the text of charge explicitly says he *may* perform an attack. Foresight is not so explicit.

Surely with a natural language reading of foresight, it could be argued that the reroll being possible is an implied condition for activating it? Perhaps another way of looking at it is, if you don't reroll the dice, then you haven't used the ability.

Are there better examples than the Gaarkhan charge? And are we really saying that, for example, if Gideon were to exhaust Military efficiency but change no results, that he's used the ability?
 
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Craig S.
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reserved89 wrote:
In the Gaarkhan example, the text of charge explicitly says he *may* perform an attack. Foresight is not so explicit.

Surely with a natural language reading of foresight, it could be argued that the reroll being possible is an implied condition for activating it? Perhaps another way of looking at it is, if you don't reroll the dice, then you haven't used the ability.

Are there better examples than the Gaarkhan charge? Are we really saying that, for example, if Gideon were to exhaust Military efficiency but change no results, that he's used the ability?

How about the Protector ability if Precise Strike removes the target's only defense die? Can you add one block to the results of a roll that does not happen? I would think the ability has nothing to do with whether or not a defense die was rolled, or in the case at hand, re-rolled.

Our Diala has Lightsaber and Defensive Stance...so her Foresight does three different things: re-roll defense die, extra block, and 1 damage to the attacker. You think she shouldn't be able to do two of them just because she can't do the third?
 
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I was just posing questions because I'm not 100% convinced by the arguments so far.

The Protector ability has nothing to do with rolling dice, so yes, you would get it even if you had no defense pool.

And as unfortunate as it would be to lose out on 3 aspects of foresight if it turned out you couldn't use the ability, I'm not sure that in itself is evidence that you should be able to use it.
 
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Yes, if Gideon exhausts Military Efficiency, it gets exhausted. If there is no symbol to change, then nothing gets changed, but the card is still exhausted. See other non-sensible things later in this post.

Let's take Fenn's Superior Positioning:
1
: Move a number of spaces upto your Speed and become Focused.

Certainly Fenn can choose to perform this action even when he is already Focused?

(I think there's a skirmish command card / ability that removes harmful conditions and gives focus, and it can be used without having the harmful condition. I probably need to search for that.

Edit: It was probably
Heart of Freedom Any Rebel Figure
Use at the start of your activation to discard 1 Harmful condition, 2 damage and gain 2 movement points.)

Recover
abilities can be used even when the hero doesn't have strain. Recover 2mb can be used even when the figure has suffered only 1mb (or none at all).

A few things you can do, but may not be sensible to do:

Quick Draw can be used at the beginning of a hostile figure's activation whether Jyn has line of sight to the figure or not, but the attack part aborts if Jyn does not have line of sight, so isn't sensible. (Jyn can use Trick Shot to gain line of sight when it didn't exist without it.)

MHD-19 can use Medical Loadout even when he has already drawn every Medical card from the supply deck.

Unstable Device can be used to blow up in a space when no objects or figures are on or adjacent to the space.


 
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Thanks for the examples but I'm still not convinced. Here's why:

Military Efficiency: Exhaust is a pre-requisite for using an ability, but isn't part of the ability, and does not automatically imply the ability was used.
Superior Positioning: You can still perform all the steps of the ability even if focused. As per the rules you are permitted to gain a second focus, it just does nothing.
Unstable Device: Targets are not relevant to you being able to perform all the steps of the ability. (Choose a space and roll the die.)

Quick Draw and Medical Loadout do seem the same case as foresight. But what are the arguments/why do you think they can be used?

So far I can't refute recover and Heart of Freedom

 
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I think Heart of Freedom is the closest, because it is the same form: cost ... Use ... trigger ... to ... effects.
 
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Craig S.
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So, Foresight says: "1
: Use while defending to re-roll 1 defense die"

Now...if you add all the other stuff from lightsaber and Defensive Stance, it could be assumed to say: "Use while defending to re-roll 1 defense die, add 1 block to your defense results, and deal 1 damage to the attacker."

Note that Defensive Stance and Shu Yen's Lightsaber don't say "when you re-roll a defense die..."; they say "When you use foresight". I think that if you are defending and can suffer the strain, you can activate Foresight whether you can use the re-roll or not.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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The example I like to use best is regarding ones with Conditions.

For example, Saska's Adrenaline Injector.

It gives figures with a device token the ability:
1 strain: When you perform a move, you may discard 1 device token to gain 2 additional movement points and become Focused.

Now, a Focused figure cannot gain Focused. But a Focused figure with a device token should still be able to discard that token to gain the two additional movement points for its move if it wishes.

If you consider effects to be part of the conditions for whether an ability can be used or not, it totally disallows such abilities. That's not the intention, though.

In order for Foresight to be unusable, the ability would need to be:
Strain Cost: While defending when at least one of your defense dice has not been rerolled, reroll one defense die.

Of course it's not written that way.
 
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a1bert wrote:
I think Heart of Freedom is the closest, because it is the same form: cost ... Use ... trigger ... to ... effects.

At least with this one you can always gain the movement points. Since you can do at least one part of the ability it's not unreasonable to claim that you used it. I guess I'm arguing that if you don't or can't do any of the steps of an ability (such as in the foresight/assassin droid case) then can you really claim to have used it?

While recover is a good example, I'm not sure that on its own it sets a precedent.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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reserved89 wrote:
Thanks for the examples but I'm still not convinced. Here's why:

Military Efficiency: Exhaust is a pre-requisite for using an ability, but isn't part of the ability, and does not automatically imply the ability was used.
No, Exhaust is always a cost. It is listed in the table of costs that is given in the abilities section of the RRG. If you cannot pay a cost, you cannot use the ability.

Quote:
Superior Positioning: You can still perform all the steps of the ability even if focused. As per the rules you are permitted to gain a second focus, it just does nothing.
These abilities say to become Focused. You can't become Focused when you are already Focused, as you were already Focused. Thus, you are not following that step of the ability. In the same way, you can't follow a step that says to reroll a die that has already been rerolled. There is no difference, yet it becomes further proof that you don't need to follow every step if you want to take the ablity.

Quote:
Unstable Device: Targets are not relevant to you being able to perform all the steps of the ability. (Choose a space and roll the die.)
You are defining some things to be steps of the ability and others not. What is your criteria?

Quote:
Quick Draw and Medical Loadout do seem the same case as foresight. But what are the arguments/why do you think they can be used?
It's because the rules are quite clear and we have had official rulings on at least one of these similar cases (although I forget which). The only pre-conditions are the cost and any statement regarding timing. Applying any other pre-conditions based on effects is not mentioned anywhere in the rules.
 
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Clipper wrote:
reserved89 wrote:
Thanks for the examples but I'm still not convinced. Here's why:

Military Efficiency: Exhaust is a pre-requisite for using an ability, but isn't part of the ability, and does not automatically imply the ability was used.
No, Exhaust is always a cost. It is listed in the table of costs that is given in the abilities section of the RRG. If you cannot pay a cost, you cannot use the ability.
I wasn't disputing it's a cost, just saying that just because you exhaust the card doesn't mean the ablity was used. But perhaps it's easier to reframe my objection and put ME into the Quick Draw, Medical Loadout category, and say can you even exhaust the card if you aren't doing any part of the ability?

Clipper wrote:

Quote:
Superior Positioning: You can still perform all the steps of the ability even if focused. As per the rules you are permitted to gain a second focus, it just does nothing.
These abilities say to become Focused. You can't become Focused when you are already Focused, as you were already Focused. Thus, you are not following that step of the ability. In the same way, you can't follow a step that says to reroll a die that has already been rerolled. There is no difference, yet it becomes further proof that you don't need to follow every step if you want to take the ablity.
Nothing prevents an ability from giving a second condition, it's just that it can't be received and does nothing. It's like adding zero. You can do it, it just has no effect. That's my reading of RRG: Conditions anyway. As such it's arguably different to the reroll case.

Clipper wrote:

Quote:
Unstable Device: Targets are not relevant to you being able to perform all the steps of the ability. (Choose a space and roll the die.)
You are defining some things to be steps of the ability and others not. What is your criteria?
Not at all. The wording itself says that if there are targets within 3 spaces they take the damage. Unlike Foresight, which doesn't say may reroll the die.

Clipper wrote:

Quote:
Quick Draw and Medical Loadout do seem the same case as foresight. But what are the arguments/why do you think they can be used?
It's because the rules are quite clear and we have had official rulings on at least one of these similar cases (although I forget which). The only pre-conditions are the cost and any statement regarding timing. Applying any other pre-conditions based on effects is not mentioned anywhere in the rules.
While I appreciate your depth of knowledge of the game, and I'll likely come to see that you are right, you don't really give the explanation as to why what you say is so. It makes little difference to me the final answer, I'm interested in the debate itself, how people think and the explanations behind things. So anyway, I'd love to see the official rulings/explanations you refer to, if you have the time to locate them.

Also my objection was not just about pre-requisites: even if you meet all the pre-requisites necessary to activate an ability, can you really consider the ability used if you don't perform any of its steps?

 
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Craig S.
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This is how I see the logic:

The conditions for Foresight (I am defending and suffered 1 strain) have been met; therefore...

I use Foresight > I can re-roll my defense die > I cannot re-roll my defense die.

Everything with "use Foresight" as a condition would become active in the first stage of that sequence.

 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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On the Conditions again, you are applying two standards. The rules tell you to "become Focused". You can't become something that you already are. The extra rule stating you can't get the second card is just the same as the rule that says you can't reroll a die that has already been rerolled.

Similarly, an effect that tells you to 'reroll all attack dice' can be resolved even if one of those attack dice had already been rerolled. You do so by only rerolling those you are allowed to reroll. This has been officially confirmed though offline conversation, so I cannot provide a quotable reference, but it is the intended method.

I'm sorry that I forget which one of the many cases of this was publicly ruled upon. I don't have time to go back through them all and find it for you.

However, I can say that while technically editing the expansions (since the figure pack wave prior to Return to Hoth), I have been careful with ensuring that costs and timing requirements are separated from the effects of the ability and to make it clear which are which. I wouldn't need to do so if the effects were a requirement to using the ability at all.

Oh, and on the 'using' of the ability, the abilities section does mention that in order to use the ability, you just need to pay the cost and satisfy any requirements (i.e., timing). It doesn't say the ability needs to be able to actually do something in order to be used.

If that's not enough to convince you, I suggest you send the Foresight query off to FFG to get a new official confirmation.
 
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reserved89 wrote:
can you really consider the ability used if you don't perform any of its steps?
If I can't trigger an ability again (due to the card becoming exhausted, or the ability being once per activation or once per round), I certainly consider the ability used, whether it affected game state beyond a card becoming exhausted (or once per activation or per round used up) or not.

If I suffered strain to pay to trigger the ability, and thus can't spend another strain because I can trigger an ability only once per timing instance, I consider the ability used, whether it affected the game state beyond suffering one strain or not.

If I suffered strain and I'm now upto my endurance, and thus can't trigger the ability again in a future instance of the trigger condition, I consider the ability used.

But this is a sideline. If I understood correctly, the original disagreement was about whether you can trigger an ability if you can't perform it fully. Nothing so far suggests that you could not, as long as 1) you can pay the cost, 2) you fulfill the trigger condition.

(Any additional prerequisite must be explicitly specified in the ability to become a requirement.)
 
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a1bert wrote:
But this is a sideline. If I understood correctly, the original disagreement was about whether you can trigger an ability if you can't perform it fully. Nothing so far suggests that you could not, as long as 1) you can pay the cost, 2) you fulfill the trigger condition.
It was whether you can trigger an ability if you can't perform any of it. It now seems clear that if you can perform some of an ability then you can do it.

@Clipper Sadly I couldn't find any official rulings that matched this situation: the Quick Draw ruling was for Quick Draw + Trick Shot and never said anything about Quick Drawing a figure without LoS.

Anyway I've read all your points (a1bert, clipper and csouth154) and you make many good ones. It's a little disappointing that some assertions weren't backed up, but understandably so, and so I guess the issue is resolved.

As a last related question for clarity's sake, I notice the following in the RRG:
RRG wrote:
If an interrupt makes the current action or ability invalid, that effect is not resolved. Any costs used to resolve that effect are
still paid.

This implies abilities can be considered invalid. So are you guys are saying you can trigger an ability even if it is invalid, as long as you meet the trigger and costs?
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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On the invalidation, that doesn't really cover this. Foresight is still valid even when it has no effect as there are no dice that can be rerolled.

The most common thing to be invalidated is attacks. Abilities that allow the target to move out of Line of Sight of the attacker invalidate the attack, as they are no longer a valid target (as an attack has a requirement that the target must be valid).

Similarly, a figure's defeat by having suffered damage equal to its Health may be invalidated if it manages to Recover damage before it is defeated.

These are cases where, throughout the ability, one of the required conditions for the ability no longer exists. Thus, the ability is invalidated and stops resolving. Foresight where the defense dice have been rerolled is not invalid, it just has no effect when you use it (and thus may trigger effects triggered by its use).
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That makes sense. Purely out of interest, would you say that you could use the Quick Draw ability without LoS and thus knowing the attack component of it is not valid?
 
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