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Warhammer Epic 40,000» Forums » General

Subject: 3rd edition vs 4th edition rss

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Aric Leung
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Does anyone out there know the difference between the last(3rd) edition and the current edition of the rules? I've heard the 3rd edition rules were quite good in that it encourages tactical thining.
 
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Jason Jullie
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There really isn't much difference between the two editions. The largest change is how hand-to-hand combat is handled. They tweaked it a bit to help out large numbers of poor troops against small squads of elite troops.

Other than that, the system got a little more stream lined. It's nothing like the change from 2nd to 3rd, where things were drastically scaled down.

EDIT: Oops. Sorry, thought the post was about 40,000k and not EPIC. I couldn't tell you the difference as far as the EPIC ruleset is concerned.
 
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Jeremy Fridy
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I personally found there were a lot of changes. The units have more stats, and the movement/fire system is a more interactive.

We found it clumsier and less realistic than Epic 40,000, so we stuck with the old rules. I fully agree that Epic 40k 3rd edition was the best set of minis rules GW ever wrote.

The best rules they ever wrote were Space Hulk, but that's a board game.
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Justin N
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Freitag wrote:
I fully agree that Epic 40k 3rd edition was the best set of minis rules GW ever wrote.


I'm shocked to hear someone say that. Not because I disagree, but because I vehemently agree. Let me explain. When I bought epic40k back when it came out, everyone hated it, except me. I thought it was a brilliant, streamlined piece of work, and it felt totally different from 2nd ed (which just felt like normal 40k with different pieces). I loved it so much I started converting it to a Fantasy setting, and ordered a bunch of 6mm units to go with it. Never did get to play it too much though, after those first few games.
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Kevin Devine
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Freitag wrote:
I fully agree that Epic 40k 3rd edition was the best set of minis rules GW ever wrote.


No disagreement from me either. I played 40k (the 25mm scale) for a while but found that Epic40k was considerably more fun. I didn't have to worry about tweaking stats for each fig. I had some stands of marines, some tanks, some artillery, a commander, some air units and we can start playing. I didn't have to worry that I'd be playing against two Heroes and the Emperor on the other side...
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Jeremy Fridy
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Of course, Kevin was my usual opponent back then. Ah, the college years, when we could play a full game in our dorm room in only 3 hours. His Eldar Vs. my Imperial or Tyranid forces.

Actually, I heard that the WWII miniatures rules "Flames of War" have a fair ammount in common with Epic 40k. Interesting...

I think the key to the success of the rules system was the fact that the entire army stat sheet was on one small sheet of paper, with each unit taking up 1 line of the sheet. Same goes for all the main charts, including the special abilities list. It was just so nice to play a GW game where I didn't have to look up a special rule for each troop type.
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Colin Hunter
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Freitag wrote:
Of course, Kevin was my usual opponent back then. Ah, the college years, when we could play a full game in our dorm room in only 3 hours. His Eldar Vs. my Imperial or Tyranid forces.

Actually, I heard that the WWII miniatures rules "Flames of War" have a fair ammount in common with Epic 40k. Interesting...

I think the key to the success of the rules system was the fact that the entire army stat sheet was on one small sheet of paper, with each unit taking up 1 line of the sheet. Same goes for all the main charts, including the special abilities list. It was just so nice to play a GW game where I didn't have to look up a special rule for each troop type.

I agree epic 3rd ed is by far the best set of rules (we tweaked it only slightly to balance a few thing, but this was very minor points changes). I've played tons of flames and epic of all editions and yes they are quite similar. I can't recommend Flames of War personally any more, but lots of people love it. Many of the people founding Battlefront (who makes flames of war) were ex games workshop. I know they get offended when you draw the parallel, but take from it what you will.
 
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Jeremy Fridy
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There are some good minis games out there for fantasy. If you can't get people to play a new game design with you (I thankfully have a small crew willing to suffer through it,) I would reccomend taking a look a Warmaster Ancients, Warrior Heroes, Hordes of the Things, Fantasy Rules!, and Armies of Arcana (though that is more of a 15 to 25mm system, but a good step back to what Warhammer Fantasy was in the old days.)
 
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James Blair
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I think the 4th edition was a step backwards... at that scale, who cares what specifics the tanks have - the firepower values of 3rd edition made things play faster, and kept the focus on fire and movement - rather than going back to the bad old system of having hundreds of variants of tanks to reference every game.
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Jonathan
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It's wierd to find so many people who like Epic 40K! It's my favorite version of the game too, and I wish it had caught on more. I'd love to update the rules with some of the new units introduced in 4th edition, but I haven't had a chance.
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Jeremy Fridy
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Well, I also got into Epic at the right time, after 3rd ed flopped and players were selling their armies off. I spent about 100 dollars on each army I own, and each army has at least 6 titans, 40 tanks, and over 100 stands of infantry. Each army is well over 8000 points, and some are well over 10000.

The Errata had a few key game balance bits, like Anti tank ability raising the cost of things by 5, (land raiders, with 2 anti-tank shots, cost 10 more.)

Also they added the rules for Squat Armies, Knight Titans (I REALLY was glad they game back, they looked so cool!) and Titans getting order dice like units.

Most of these are in the Firepower magazine, along with the costs of fortifications like walls and gun towers.
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Therron Thomas
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Freitag wrote:
Epic 40k 3rd edition was the best set of minis rules GW ever wrote.



AHMEN!!!!

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Richard Dewsbery
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I agree too. It was the only ruleset that GW ever put out that understood the importance of abstracting the details to produce something clean and fast-flowing, which emphasised tactics rather than stat lines. It's a shame that it wasn't well received and the last Epic-scale follow-up was a retrograde step.

Maybe one day I will finish my IG, Tyranid and Eldar armies for E40k (to go along with a huge amount of Space Marines that I did eventually get done).
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Toco
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jmw23 wrote:
It's wierd to find so many people who like Epic 40K! It's my favorite version of the game too, and I wish it had caught on more. I'd love to update the rules with some of the new units introduced in 4th edition, but I haven't had a chance.


I think the answer is simple. GW doesn't care if a game is good. They're in for the money. If it does not make them tons of money FAST, then they abandon it. yuk
 
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Damo
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James_Blair wrote:
I think the 4th edition was a step backwards... at that scale, who cares what specifics the tanks have - the firepower values of 3rd edition made things play faster, and kept the focus on fire and movement - rather than going back to the bad old system of having hundreds of variants of tanks to reference every game.


This is the strange thing for me. What is the difference between referencing this:



and this:



The difference is this -
Space Marine has a unit firing a number of dice at different to-hit modifiers, while Epic:40K has a Detachment firing a number of dice at units with different armour values. The result is the same - a number of dice are rolled and different values apply.

Though in Epic:40K a detachment can have any number of units, so you'll have to reference each units stats to determine the firpower rating before you can roll it...

In the case of a "miss", instead of referencing just the firing units stats (SM), you are referencing the firing units stats AND the receiving units stats (E40K).

As for a "streamlined system" here's the Epic4:0K shooting rules.



In SM - you allocate target(s) to weapons or unts and roll the dice (adding or subtracting modifiers). It either hits and the target then roles a save if it has one or dies, or it misses... and that's it.

For me the system is clunky and games no longer as flow as they did.

IMHO only YMMV.

(Oh, "hundreds" of tanks is just a bit of an over-exageration )
 
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Toco
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What really went wrong was that it was too big a paradigm shift for Epic 2nd edition players. I suspect that if it was a brand new system (i.e. there had been no "previous" Epic game) it would've been a big hit.
For me (I didn't play any Epic scale game when I bought Epic 3rd edition) it was a SUPER game, so I never started with 4th edition Armageddon.
 
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