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The mainstream shelves remain empty of any good games save a few exceptions.
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Marc P
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You funny, Steve Weeks, the *unhappy li'l* gamer.

"What is truth?"
P. Pilate
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the*mad*gamer wrote:
This is why some Euro designers opt for the "Hidden Gem" approach to marketing their Euro games.

OK, I'll bite... name two.
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Rusty McFisticuffs
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Wait, never mind, this is stupid. Even if you can name two designers who have deliberately chosen low-key marketing out of a fear of seeing their games in the bargain bins at Wal-Mart--and I bet you can't--that still wouldn't prove your point. If that were the reason Euro games aren't mainstream in the US, then all it would take to change that is one designer who didn't feel that way.
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Andrew C
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Steve,

From one Ameritrasher to another:

Why don't you lay off trashing games you don't like and try extolling the virtues of games you do.

You're making the Ameritrash movement seem like its all about being bitter, rather than being about fun games.



edit: If you're trying to win over more Ameritrash fans, you're going about it the wrong way. For me, the movement has gone so far off the tracks and gotten so negative that I for one have refocused my attention on wargames. The grognards know how to accept their niche within a niche position and just enjoy their games. I think you could learn something from them.
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Jay Little
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I'm still not sure what does or does not qualify as Euro, but I have seen the following games (which I at least would not define as Ameritrash if not Euro) at my local Target and Walmart -

Blokus, Rumis, Loot, Candyland -- I mean, hey, if you're looking for streamlined rules and a scoring track, you can't beat Candyland, right?
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Andrew C
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the*mad*gamer wrote:
Quote:
You're making the Ameritrash movement seem like its all about being bitter, rather than being about fun games.



How do you see what I wrote as "bitter"? The fact is I love games and out of the kindness of my heart I am trying to tell the Euro guys how to sell more games.


In fairness Steve, my comment was sort of a general statement about my perception of your posts since Michael was banned. Perhaps this wasn't the right thread to say what I've been thinking for a while.

Maybe its just me, but your tone lately strikes me as bitter. I'd like to see you get back to posting positive comments and lists about great games. The worst thing for BGG would be for you to get banned as well.

edit: I read this post as a subtle attack on euros. If I misinterpreted your intent, I apologize. Forget I said anything. I'm off to scout out the lastest wargame list.
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Troy Adlington
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Steve,

Eurogames ARE mainstream. In Europe........

And if I know my Europeans they wouldn't take a lack of sales at WALMART (of all places Steve?) as a negative reflection on themselves. Rather an indictment of Nascar and Wrestling enthused illiterates.








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Daniel Corban
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kuhrusty wrote:
the*mad*gamer wrote:
This is why some Euro designers opt for the "Hidden Gem" approach to marketing their Euro games.

OK, I'll bite... name two.

*crickets chirping*
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Tim Gilberg
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Cleitus the Black wrote:

You're making the Ameritrash movement seem like its all about being bitter, rather than being about fun games.


The Ameritrash movement is all about being bitter--or more accurately all about being a disruptive jerk--not all about fun games.

It may have seemed like it was about fun games at first. And I don't doubt that many that considered themselves sympathetic to the inital idea still think this is so--but the Ameritrash group, as it has existed here, is merely about being disruptive for the sake of being disruptive.

I'd guess that is the reason why some want to change the term to something other than Ameritrash--they want to refer to something that is defined by games, not by trying to be the biggest forum troll.
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Tim Seitz
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Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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the*mad*gamer wrote:
My local Wal Mart and my local Toys R Us doesn’t even have Settlers of Catan on the shelves and although you do see some of the more popular Euro games on the Toys R US website, my prediction is that the mainstream shelves will be remain empty of Euro games for the reasons I give above.


Get over yourself already. Stop bein' a hata!



And oh, by the way, the mainstream shelves will be remain empty of AMERITRASH games for the SAME reasons.

In fact...

The mainstream shelves will be remain empty of ANY GOOD games for the SAME reasons.

If all you aspire to is Heroscape, then knock yourself out. Really.
 
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Todd
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Little St. Petersburg Arkham Horror looks across the street with eyes of wonder wanting to go play with his rather uncouth friend Heroscape on the shelves of Wal Mart. Wouldn’t it be so much fun to test the waters of this new playground? Little St. Petersburg Arkham Horror wants so much to play with his friend on the shelves of Wal Mart but soon feels the stern hand of his EuroAmeritrash guardian leading him away telling him we do not associate with THOSE types of games and certainly not in that environment!

The EuroAmeritrash guardian does what he thinks best for his favorite child little St. Petersburg Arkham Horror but in the back of his mind wonders also if it wouldn’t be fun to try the Wal Mart playground but quickly dismisses the thought because to be rejected by Bertha, the Wal Mart buyer would be a blow that the EuroAmeritrash guardian’s ego could not withstand and even if Bertha gave her blessing for little St. Petersburg Arkham Horror to play on the Wal Mart shelves something worse might happen. What if little St. PetersburgArkham Horror has not developed the skills to play with the sorts of Heroscape and was soon sent to the bargain bin along with Big Brother Trivia and Strawberry Shortcake Adventure? The EuroAmeritrash guardian could not stand that to happen to little St. PetersburgArkham Horror, so Little St. Petersburg Arkham Horror must stay sheltered among his own kind with other Elite EurosAmeritrash. Little Saint Petersburg Arkham Horror looks back at Wal Mart with a sad look as his EuroAmeritrash guardian takes his hand and walks away in tassled loafers putting him back on a table at an exclusive Hobby Shop.

Caveat- I so know Arkham Horror is not a little game but it would gather dust on the walmart shelf right next to St. Pete
Caveat- I hate St. Pete it is boredom in a box and I love Arkham I am trying to make a point that it will take a miracle for any (Ameritrash/Euro/Grognard) game we love make it mainstream.
There is already a Bargin Bin it is called Tanga were gamers buy mediocere games to try and trade on the Geek.
I really don't know how you can read this post and not see it laced with the same elitism that the "mad" one complains soooo much about.
If you are inclined to do so please feel free to misquote and take out of context anything I said it will make you feel soo awesome.
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Tim K.
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the*mad*gamer wrote:
The little story above illustrates why the Euro game in my opinion will never go mainstream.

You're nuts. kiss

The reason why Euros will never go mainstream in America is because the American game consumer is, by and large, a moron with the attention span of a gnat (and I've got nothing against gnats). "What?! The rules are more than 2 paragraphs?! Forget it!"

It's got zero to do with marketing. Anything more than roll & move will simply never catch on here.
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Dave Shapiro
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Euro games will never be mainstream - true. But then neither will wargames or any of the other 'hobby' games. We need to put this in perspective. Most gamers today are electronic gamers. 8 million players are paying $15 per month to play WoW online. Halo 2 sold $125,000,000 the first week of it's release. Board gaming is a niche market/hobby. To expect a small segment of a niche market to expand into the mainstream is not realistic.

The Toys R Us and Barnes and Noble have carried some Euro games (including Carcassone) but always dump them in February. I suspect that this is as close to 'mainstream' as these games will ever be.

We, who are so fond of 'hard copy' games, are in the minority. This is an age of electronic gaming. Even many of the Euros are being played online - it is the future. (One member of our gaming group plays Gang of Four daily - he owns a pristine deck as he spends most of his playing time online.) One day we (old farts) will sit down before a blank horizontal monitor placed in the center of the table. Someone will plug in a module and the board will appear. Expect that one day games will be downloaded in a manner similar to MP3s or movies today. (Vinal is dead.)

So I agree with you - Eurogames will never be mainstream.
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Anthony Simons
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the*mad*gamer wrote:
My local Wal Mart and my local Toys R Us doesn’t even have Settlers of Catan on the shelves and although you do see some of the more popular Euro games on the Toys R US website, my prediction is that the mainstream shelves will be remain empty of Euro games for the reasons I give above.


That's interesting; my local Walmart and my local Toys'R'Us don't have Settlers of Catan on their shelves; but in both I have noticed that boardgames in general are outnumbered heavily by computer games and kiddie toys.

If I cross the street into Borders, however, I can find lots and lots of books, CD's and DVD's; there are also two rows of shelves full of games from Cluedo and Risk to Settlers of Catan and Ticket to Ride: Europe. I have seen copies of Mensa Connections, plain old TtR and Lord of the Rings there also - they keep restocking so there must be somebody buying them (and it isn't us gamers - we know better places to get them).

If I visit the local modelling shop, catering for enthusiasts of the train set and other forms of modelling, there is a small selection of games in the middle of it all - from RPG's to wargames. There are also a slack handful of "Euros", the line up changes now and again but very rarely are the usual subjects present. Last time I visited there were a few Days of Wonder games (which I know you would really want to claim as "Ameritrash" but can't), a couple of AH titles (Diplomacy and A&A I think) and one or two Eagle games. Not one copy of Settlers, not one copy of St Petersburg - but if I want either it's no problem to put in an order.
 
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Joe Geerkin
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"Euros will never go mainstream" has been the subject of a thousand threads here.

My repsonse is so what. I like 'em, I don't really give a damn if other people do.

While I want them to do well, I don't own stock in Rio Grande games, so I don't really care if the latest Euro ends up at Wal-mart.

Is playing Nexus Ops or Heroscape considered mainstream? CSI: Miami is mainstream. People playing board games, who are over the age of twelve, is not.

I'm fine with not being mainstream.
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John Paul Sodusta
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woundwart wrote:
Little St. Petersburg Arkham Horror looks across the street...


My thoughts exactly.
 
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the*mad*gamer wrote:
The little story above illustrates why the Euro game in my opinion will never go mainstream. On one hand the designers of the Euro game would love to have their games on the shelves of every retail store in town but the fear of rejection from the public at large and seeing their “masterpieces” in the bargain bins at Wal Mart would be more than they could take. This is why some Euro designers opt for the “Hidden Gem” approach to marketing their Euro games.


I disagree, this is more on the publisher's shoulder to tackle. It is the publisher's job to figure out how to sell the game to the public. The designer already has made a masterpiece and already sold it to the publisher.

Also, I cannot fathom why would a designer "fear" rejection from the public at large. He/she had designed the game with an audience (the BGG minded) in mind. It is either he succeeds in attracting that audience or not. It has got nothing to do with fear. The reason the bargain bins are filled with boardgames in places like Walmart and Toys R' Us is obviously the patrons of such stores do not purchase unfamiliar boardgames in general. The American public just do not know these kind of games exist and what they don't know, they scoff at and ignore.

Quote:
The “Hidden Gem” approach is where the designer purposely markets the game in a low key manner hoping that a buzz will be generated and word of mouth will promote their game. Most Euro gamers love to go to Essen and try to uncover a “hidden gem”, it is like a treasure hunt, it is exciting. This “hidden gem” approach to marketing the Euro game adds to the game’s mystique and is the perfect marketing tool to use when trying to market to an elite Euro gamer.

This is a very popular and powerful marketing technique that is used for all kinds of products.

The reasons you have provided Euro's will never be mainstream are false, weak, if anything. qrux's reason is one of the main reasons why the "GOOD" boardgames (Euros, Ameritrash, wargames, etc) will never be mainstream. For "good" boardgames to become mainstream, mainstream America has to change its culture.
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Eddie the Cranky Gamer
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the*mad*gamer wrote:

My local Wal Mart and my local Toys R Us doesn’t even have Settlers of Catan on the shelves and although you do see some of the more popular Euro games on the Toys R US website, my prediction is that the mainstream shelves will be remain empty of Euro games for the reasons I give above.


You've misnamed the thread. The name of this thread should be "why boardgames will never go mainstream", because euro or not people for the most part ignore board games because the board games they can find are mostly unplayable messes.

But I do appreciate that the intent of your thread was to throw fuel on the fire of retardation you seem to take a perverse thrill in and that generalizing it to an actual useful point would have undermined your entirely insubstantial soapbox.
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James Davis
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If Euros arent mainstream why can I walk into 4 stores in my small country town of 10,000 and buy them from 1 supermarket, 1 bookstore and 2 department stores?

Its easier for me to find Euros then it is to get monopoly, risk or cluedo.

All thought you dont really care if your statements are right or not, you just need ammo for your little podcast.
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Jonas
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Hey, I think Euro's need to learn from McDonalds they sell billions of hamburgers and of course everyone knows that a McDonalds hamburger is the best hamburger there is
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Mik Svellov
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Eurogames are NOT supposed to be mainstream.
They were designed to oppose the mainstream market.
Even in Germany are mainstream games outselling Eurogames with at least 10:1.
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Mik Svellov
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jamesdavis wrote:

If Euros arent mainstream why can I walk into 4 stores in my small country town of 10,000 and buy them from 1 supermarket, 1 bookstore and 2 department stores?

Its easier for me to find Euros then it is to get monopoly, risk or cluedo.

Maybe you are loong in the wrong places?
Monopoly and Wer wird Millionär are annually selling half a million copies in Germany, whereas only the Spiel des Jahres winner comes even close to that. Most German Eurogames sell 20,000 to 100,000 copies (over several years!)
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J C Lawrence
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Simply, why do we want Eurogames to go mainstream? I belive that such a motion would be strongly counter to our interests and would in fact destroy the very boutique qualities we value in the eurogame market.
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Daniel Danzer
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Here are at least two things mixed up.

Mainstream = Wal-Mart in the US.

Euro-Designers = People who decide how to promote games.

We talk about markets in different countries, different continents, different cultures. What do you expect? There will always be literature, music or whatever making the top ten in one country (mostly where they come from) and don`t make it somewhere else. Do you expect "mainstream country music" will be bestselling in Italy? Or pop-bands singing in German, "mainstream" here for ten years, will ever be known in the US? Do you really think these bands are afraid of the next american wal-mart CD-sellout ???

The Designers don`t care at all, in which shelves in which market their games stand. They have an idea and try to develop the best game out of it. They don`t be afraid to see their games in a wrong environment. That`s ridiculous and cannot be meant serious.

There are publishers. Maybe you heard about this. They have the last word about the theme, the packaging, the marketing, even about the mechanic and the audience a certain game aims at. You can be sure, the publishers just look for the most money, that`s all. And propbably they know more about their possibilities to make money on the global market than you do.

There is a different reason, why "Eurogames" will never be mainstream in the US.

No cultural creation of a certain depth or higer quality will ever be "mainstream", in the US or elsewhere.

Only mediocre things will. Because of the mediocrity of the average human being, vulgo "the masses". The same with Blockbuster movies ...

Of course there is mediocre stuff that is made "perfect" to fit in this scheme and make a whole bunch of money (sometimes). But they are products for the market, not new developments. And even these fail more often than they really work. Ask any Hollywood producer. If they had the perfect recipe for making a huge success, they would do nothing but huge successes.

And if you complain about Euro-designers running out of new ideas in another thread, this contradicts in a way. Only without real new ideas you can be mainstream.
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