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Subject: Summary of findings/risks of LOAD campaign and Archon rss

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Brett M
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Hello all,

There has been much debate and discussion about the status of this project. I am trying to consolidate it all into one post for people in the most impartial manner possible (although I am not saying it is impartial as I am just taking others opinions and putting them here... this is currently very skewed to the negative which I hope to address).

This is just the start but please feel free to respond below and I will edit/add to this. I particularly would welcome any PRO LOAD backers input as what I took the below from was mainly the negative view points and I want to address both sides well here. Thanks!

Please note: the only part of this that is my opinion is the full disclosure at the end although it is impossible for my own thoughts not to seep in here somewhat (like me labeling some things minor etc). I welcome all feedback but please know I am not advocating any of these specific claims... just trying to consolidate 15+ pages here and tons of posts on the KS/FB group. I just want people to make an informed decision on this KS as it is very atypical.

_______________________________________________________________________
Claims against the KS:
Original thread that spawned this all: https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1578952/ks-creator-cannot-r...

1) They plagiarized Rum and Bones rules (1.0 not the newer 2.0 that kickstarted recently) word for word in numerous places.
Quote:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1580062/copy-rum-and-bones

This has been blamed on an outside rules consultant but Archon will not reveal who it was (or who designed the gameplay) and has pulled the rules from the campaign. It is important to note that there is sufficient evidence to prove this was not an accident and very intentional. There are way too many word for word and even grammar duplications for it not to be.

Even if Archons statement is true it begs the question how much was the game play tested that no one noticed the significant similarities? Most naysayers of the project do not buy it.

Note Archon did pseudo admit it (but also denied) here: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22769101#22769101

Update: They posted new rules that fixed this. They still have the same intent but different wording now

2) They have copied character design/abilities from DOTA 2. Down to exact ability names and effects in many cases.
Quote:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1579227/match-heroes-dota-2

This is a very similar issue to the post above only with regards to stealing characters instead of rules. That said there is precedence for this in other games (paying tribue etc). This likely would not have been a big issue if not for both the rules issue above... and them copying characters in their entirety (exact abilities name, looks, and effects) instead of just paying tribute.

Archons response: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22771761#22771761

Update: Again they have changed names etc slightly but for the most part not the actual characters/abilities. I still think they are a little too similar but it's much better now and not anything I'd be concerned with (again this last bit is just my opinion)

3) They tried to hide they are basically Prodos 2.0 behind a self imposed NDA and only revealed it now that they got caught.
Quote:
(original findings: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22748357#22748357)
(newer info: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22777726#22777726
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22778305#22778305)

(confirmation they have set up numerous companies at least:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/22804407#22804407)

It must be stressed that it appears (keyword appears... although there is a lot of evidence in the links above) that they are trying to shift assets to Archon from Prodos to shed their previous bad press/issues.

The two biggest pieces of evidence are the owners of both are clearly family members (read BGG links above for details) and that "Prodos has reduced its staff from thirty to four in half a year, and Archon has a staff of thirty." The BGG link even goes over the government webpage and company share holdings. While not full proof it is a solid case.

4) They tried to hide their location by stating they were in Chicago but they are in Poland.
Quote:
This one seems minor (and honestly could just be a mistake in using KS) but plays into the intentional hiding of information from point 3 above.
Archons statement on it: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22768970#22768970

It's worth noting you can't start a KS from Poland... so they did have to state a different location which is why I deem this as minor.

5) They hired Mihajlo Vlaskovic who has connections to DemiGod's Rising another problematic KS.
Quote:
This one again seems minor but it did draw a whole other group of people's attention to the issue and is part of what allowed BGG users to crack the lid on the NDA.
Demigods Rising KS link: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/136317723/demigods-risi...

6) The current status of their AvP project is they are out of money and producing things as profits from other projects role into Prodos
Quote:
Source: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1725223471063990/permalink/1...

Further, this makes some of the people against this campaign worry part of the LOAD funds will go towards fulfilling the AvP campaign and they'll be stuck in the same boat. Archon assures them they are not related at all to Prodos and both are individual companies though.

This last part normally should not be a concern as that is a lawsuit waiting to happen (spending funds from one KS on another game) but they did previously send this email to AvP backers

Prodos email to AvP backers on October 16, 2015 wrote:
As you may know, we are not alone in this struggle and many others have a similar story to tell when trying to break into the miniature gaming market. In fact, many companies are running KS after KS just to fulfil their previous KS. This is the case for us as well, we initially went with AvP on KS to get everything straightened up with Warzone and to make sure that we won’t have to come back on KS again, ever. Not that we don't like Kickstarter, but we don't think it's a great way to continue our business.

Also, the questions it raises about Archons management is valid (as they are owned by the same people as Prodos) and many people against the campaign state this is misleading as Prodos owns significant portions of Archon, has shared employees, and refer to the comment on the ownership in point 3 above

If you want even more detail here is the current forum for it. Be warned it is massive:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556916.page

Update: Many AvP pledges apparently have been shipped out recently. Plenty of people are still missing their pledges but they are clearly still delivering and working to fulfill there campaign.

7) They lied on numerous occasions to their backers in AvP
Quote:
The details are in this massive thread:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556916.page

I do not have time to sift through it for specific examples but here is a BGG post containing an ex-Prodos employee view on it:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/22804407#22804407

And Archons response to this:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22804927#22804927

8) They heave threatened legal action against users for finding public information on their family members... Aka the owners and shareholders of Archon.
Quote:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1582865/archonprodos-threat...

Their response (also in that thread) is they said seeking legal advice... Not legal action... and in other posts I have seen they state they do not plan to take action.

On a personal note I do wish this information was reserved to PMs and not posted publicly... But when Archon/Prodos set them up as owners and share holders of the companies in question... They opened themselves up to it. All information found and shared was publicly available and only about owners of the companies in question. It is reasonable for backers to want to understand the company they are supporting.

This whole point seems to have gotten blown out of proportion (on both sides) but was a very bad move by Archon/Prodos in my mind even though I understand they felt under attack

_______________________________________________________________________
Claims for the KS:

1/10/18 UPDATE: Prodos recently has been very candid with comments regarding AvP which sheds a lot of light on this situation too. Putting it at the top here for visibility even though I doubt many will come to this thread at this point:
https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1911626/prodos-discusse...
/UPDATE

Note a group of backers has compiled a lot of information here: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1725223471063990/permalink/1...


1) They are a proven company that has helped many projects and companies with minis.
Quote:
The counter point to this is: The satisfied clients were large in scale and were not crowdfunders. Unlike crowdfunding, large clients do not necessarily pay all their money up front nor play a passive role in the miniatures making process. For example, they'll receive sample miniatures before production is made, then give the okay.

2) They have clearly done a lot of the leg work and are far along in the process. Including starting production already.
Quote:
Further miniature production, which is the riskiest part of a miniature based KS, is being done in house
Sources: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-boa...
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-boa...

That said this is mainly true of the minis. There is a lot of work to do on the rules and gameplay as evidenced by the plagiarism and them pulling the rules. **Update: They have since made progress on this and backers have done numerous TTS (tabletop simulations) of the game and found it enjoyable.**

Further, backers of their previous project (Aliens vs Predators) say similar pictures were provided to them but look how that worked out for them. Note I cannot find said pictures since the KS page was removed... but this does come from a thread on dakka
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/691589.pa...

Quote:
They did that with AVP iirc... and then supposedly trashed those minis. Fast forward over a year later and some backers (albeit a shrinking number) are still waiting for those same (redesigned supposedly) minis. I'd post a link but they took down all the evidence along with the KS campaign page. They've also showed tons of boxes waiting to be shipped out as proof of their efforts to meet a looming backer self set shipping deadline.. only to find out weeks later that (at least on dakka) no one got anything and that those hundreds of boxes went to retail instead. Pics or it didn't happen sadly isn't enough proof for a company like Prodos.

3) Based on their development progress there is no reason to believe they will not deliver as compared to the typical KS (unless plagiarism holds them up) but their track record does suggest it will be late.

Quote:
The counter point is obviously the AvP project in which some backers have still received nothing years later. The latest update from Prodos (on AvP) still implies they are going to deliver though and are working towards it. Many do not believe this however and think they are shifting assets to Archon to protect themselves if this goes south.

Update: Many AvP pledges apparently have been shipped out recently. Plenty of people are still missing their pledges but they are clearly still delivering and working to fulfill there campaign.

4) They have been very proactive in the KS updates to address some of these concerns and even responded in the BGG thread
Quote:
Not to mention in their latest AvP update (Aliens vs Predators is a Prodos KS that is the cause of a lot of Prodos' bad press) they revealed quite a bit on the financial reasons for the delays.

Link to AvP update: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1725223471063990/permalink/1...

All this said... the biggest concerns (plagiarism... Archon/Prodos connections) have been avoided (to my knowledge) and many still don't view this positively since they are only doing it in response to BGG users uncovering unflattering information.

5) Ninja Division (makers of Super Dungeon Explore, Relic Knights, and more) has signed on to publish this in the States which instills some sense of ownership/trust on their part in Prodos/Archon.

And now Ulisses Games has been confirmed to be doing the same for Germany
Quote:
Source: http://ninjadivision.com/ninja-division-publishing-announces...
Source for German version: https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22823348#22823348

Note that this is only for AFTER KS DELIVERY. So it does not speak to the actual KS process or game production... and AvP backers will be quick to note AvP has been at retail for a while and they do not have their game/product

Further, Prodos used them (Ninja Division) for their AvP KS. So again this only speaks to the eventual distribution and not the actual production of the game. It does still show some trust on their part (and Arhcons commitment/preparation to this product to already have these details sorted out) but do not mistake this for their involvement in the actual game.

6) The KS is a very good deal considering cost/mini... and Archon have said that if you are a KS backer, you will be able to purchase future exclusive content, such as exclusive tournament minis, or the KS exclusive stretch goals if they do not get unlocked. Of course that all depends on things turning out well

Quote:
That said please be wary of this as well as if this is not priced right, then they might end up like AvP all over again. The most expensive painted tier for example does not add up (or is just a crazy good deal). See post here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22809321#22809321

Even if it is just a very good deal, that means this pledge is not adding value to the project (may even be hurting it) but instead adding complexity and artificially inflating the total.

Still you cannot deny the value is there and is even good by KS standards

7) Archon states (per update #23) your pledge is protected by Polish law
Quote:
Source: https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-boa...
Link to Polish law: https://uokik.gov.pl/consumer_protection2.php

This is just my own opinion... but I for one don't take much comfort from this. I have seen (and been part of) bad kickstarters that offered full refunds... none of them worked out well... and per comments in this thread many AvP backers asked for refunds but Prodos stated they were not able to offer refunds (https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22834862#22834862). Prodos is not Archon but they are run/owned by the same parties.

Not to mention it's impossible to launch a KS in Poland (see KS terms and services) which is why they setup the account in Chicago and said they were based there in their profile. So via this KS you have a contract with a US based entity. I am not a lawyer... but I would think this makes the waters very murky if you want to pursue this internationally... and are you really going to pursue action against them to enforce this from a different country? I don't think it would be an easy battle (even if clear cut) and could cost you more money in the end.

Update: Archon strengthened their statement saying "Trent We will give our backers moneyback guarantee. We really thought that citing the law has much more weight than plainly saying it, but, there you go." on June 3rd in the KS comments. Does not change my opinion above but certainly strengthens their statement.

_______________________________________________________________________


Full disclosure: I am a Demigods Rising backer but I'd like to believe I have been pretty fair about my judgments along the way... and if anything I am appreciative to Prodos for giving us a glimmer of hope. If DR ends up delivering I will give all credit to Prodos (who was not responsible for the issues with Demigods)

That said I will not be touching LOAD with a ten foot pole for the rules plagiarism issue alone... not to mention the significant copying of DOTA characters, the NDA debacle, etc. I truly hope this works out for all (and do not fault people if they still find this a good investment) but there are WAY too many warning signs for me personally and I do not want to support people who plagiarize so blatantly. I think they have a potentially great product in Unicast but really screwed this specific KS/game up.

_______________________________________
Sources and other Links if you want to look more in depth:
Note many of these are LOOONG

BGG threads:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1578952/ks-creator-cannot-r...
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1580062/copy-rum-and-bones
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1579227/match-heroes-dota-2

Facebook Group:
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1725223471063990/permalink/1...

The threads on Dakka are:
LOAD: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/691589.page
Prodos: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/690765.page
AvP: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556916.page

And Beasts of War:
http://www.beastsofwar.com/groups/sci-fi-gamer-town-square/f...

_______________________________________
Change Log: I will list any significant mods here. Most will just be cleaning up grammar and formatting (and atleast for the first few hours I won't list things as I am populating and adding to this)

05/26/16 around 3:00pm EST - Added points from others below... and updated formatting a lot to make it a bit more readable and also include more of a point/counter point vibe.

05/27/16 around 9:00am EST - Updated for Archon update of produced minis.

05/27/16 around 1:00pm EST - Added an email from Prodos to AvP backers in point 6 of the against section that is surprising to say the least.

05/27/16 around 4:00pm EST - Added point 5 to the FOR side

05/27/16 8:00pm EST - Added misc links for more info if desired

05/29/16 7:00am EST - Added point 7 in the for section... and added confirmation from Ex-Prodos employee they set up numerous companies (does not mention Archon specifically)

05/30/16 at noon EST - added an excellent analysis of the highest painted tier (it appears to be way to cheap for what is offered)

05/30/16 at 9:00pm EST - added the threat of legal action to the against topics.

06/01/16 at 11:30am EST - added polish consumer protection stuff from update #23

06/03/16 - made some updates to previous bullets for new information.

01/10/2018 - Added in the latest from Prodos explaining a lot of their issues with AvP. Wish they had been this forthcoming way back when but potentially explains a lot
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Paul Chamberland
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A couple points to add to the against section.

6. Prodos has lied to their AvP backers. One example is:http://www.somethingswrong.sg/2014/12/alien-vs-predator.html
AvP backers can probably link to other examples.

7. The current status of the AvP project - major points being out of money, shipping wave 2 to backers as money from sales trickles in, wave 2 and 3 models still waiting for approvals. The link is for the AvP update in the point 4 of the Points for section.

For the for section:
5. Miniatures production, which is the riskiest part of a miniatures KS, is being done in house. https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-boa...
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In your pros section: "3) There is no reason to believe they will not deliver (unless plagiarism holds them up) but their track record does suggest it will be late."

That's not true. There are people who backed AvP that are out of money and have nothing to show for their investment. That seems like a good reason to believe they may not deliver. Also, what about the problems they could face with the original DotA?

Isn't telling people that there is no reason to believe they will not deliver really just your highly subjective opinion? That's not a fact. There obviously is reason, or that comment section on the Kick page wouldn't be such a bloody shit show.
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Not sure where to post the rebuttals, but...

1) They are a proven company that has helped many projects and companies with minis.

A Dakkanaut made a good point. The satisfied clients were large in scale and were not crowdfunders. Unlike crowdfunding, large clients do not necessarily pay all their money up front nor play a passive role in the miniatures making process. Frex, they'll receive sample miniatures before production is made, then give the okay. EDIT: IIRC, With their RECON manufacture, MegaConGames received samples of their miniatures, and paid half upfront. When the first of their production miniature arrived, these mini's were of poor quality, and MCG did not approve of the minis and refused further payment. MCG cited that their not paying the entire cost upfront gave them leverage. Since backers pay the entirety upfront, they do not have this leverage.

2) They have clearly done a lot of the leg work and are far along in the process.

They're far along the miniature making process. The rules, at least in English, are undergoing a rewrite. From the plagiarism issue, it's possible that no English-speaking playtesters were involved in the project, since I would assume anyone playtesting a MOBA boardgame *should* have at least played Rum and Bones 1st edition, a popular MOBA boardgame and the game the LOAD English rules plagiarized.

3) There is no reason to believe they will not deliver

Years into the AvP KS, some backers have not received Wave 1 product.

4) They have been very proactive in the KS updates to address some of these concerns and even responded in the BGG thread.

The person responding in the BGG thread is (was) Jarek, the CEO of Prodos, and (I would say) creator on AvP. As for updates, he has posted updates with deadlines that were missed, and announced a £40K fund for shipping, then later ask for additional funds for shipping by offering a jump in the shipping queue for anyone who placed web orders.

BTW, I'd say the "against" section is a little loaded, but, unlike the LOAD FB page, I'm not seeing claims of impartiality, just a summary. I'm sure anyone new to the BGG LOAD threads will still appreciate it -- and BGG's been written off by some of the more "pro" LOAD backers, anyway.

EDIT: Maybe say "Claims" instead of "Points"?

Good work! thumbsup

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broken clock wrote:
In your pros section: "3) There is no reason to believe they will not deliver (unless plagiarism holds them up) but their track record does suggest it will be late."

That's not true. There are people who backed AvP that are out of money and have nothing to show for their investment. That seems like a good reason to believe they may not deliver. Also, what about the problems they could face with the original DotA?

Isn't telling people that there is no reason to believe they will not deliver really just your highly subjective opinion? That's not a fact. There obviously is reason, or that comment section on the Kick page wouldn't be such a bloody shit show.

I'm trying to list both sides here and I've seen many voice this opinion. And AvP is delivering (albeit slowly) so it's not fact that they are not. It is only fact that they are significantly late and backers have good reason to be concerned. It's a crummy situation and I totally feel for you... but they are still working towards it and their recent update does back up they still plan to deliver in full.

And the DOTA thing is covered in the plagiarism comment.

Again trying to be impartial... the only part that is specifically my opinion is the full disclosure at the end although it's impossible for me not to have some effect on the post (for example me labelling some of the points as minor etc). My personal opinion on this specific issue (the AvP backers) is I do think they'll deliver but it still won't be for a long time... and that they are moving assets to Archon on prupose to protect themselves.... and further I agree Prodos has not treated you well at all and I would not back any future products by them until they prove themselves elsewhere.

EDIT: I tried to address this specific point though with yours and SamandMaxes points. Is it better represented now? Thanks!
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Sam and Max wrote:
Not sure where to post the rebuttals, but...

1) They are a proven company that has helped many projects and companies with minis.

A Dakkanaut made a good point. The satisfied clients were large in scale and were not crowdfunders. Unlike crowdfunding, large clients do not necessarily pay all their money up front nor play a passive role in the miniatures making process. Frex, they'll receive sample miniatures before production is made, then give the okay.

2) They have clearly done a lot of the leg work and are far along in the process.

They're far along the miniature making process. The rules, at least in English, are undergoing a rewrite. From the plagiarism issue, it's possible that no English-speaking playtesters were involved in the project, since I would assume anyone playtesting a MOBA boardgame *should* have at least played Rum and Bones 1st edition, a popular MOBA boardgame and the game the LOAD English rules plagiarized.

3) There is no reason to believe they will not deliver

Years into the AvP KS, some backers have not received Wave 1 product.

4) They have been very proactive in the KS updates to address some of these concerns and even responded in the BGG thread.

The person responding in the BGG thread is (was) Jarek, the CEO of Prodos, and (I would say) creator on AvP. As for updates, he has posted updates with deadlines that were missed, and announced a £40K fund for shipping, then later ask for additional funds for shipping by offering a jump in the shipping queue for anyone who placed web orders.

BTW, I'd say the "against" section is a little loaded, but, unlike the LOAD FB page, I'm not seeing claims of impartiality, just a summary. I'm sure anyone new to the BGG LOAD threads will still appreciate it -- and BGG's been written off by some of the more "pro" LOAD backers, anyway.

EDIT: Maybe say "Claims" instead of "Points"?

Good work! thumbsup


Thanks very much for the thoughts and added content/info. I'll do my best to incorporate it and I also will try to work on a point counter/point type system like you suggest. Thanks!

Regarding this being stacked in the negative. 100% agree which is why I have the part at the top about how I'd love some PRO LOAD feedback. Reading through the FB I just can't find alot of strong defenses/viewpoints though besides link to Archon updates/statements.

EDIT: FB page has been updated a lot since my original read of it and is now much more fair/representative.
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Michael Jenkins
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Thanks for distilling the information into some more manageable chunks. There's so much being said all over the place that it's difficult to sort it all out and still have time for a day job
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MichaelJSculptor wrote:
Thanks for distilling the information into some more manageable chunks. There's so much being said all over the place that it's difficult to sort it all out and still have time for a day job

Happy to help. That was definitely my intent. I had a slow day at work... was reading through this all... and thought a summary was REALLY needed. Tried to do it myself while it was somewhat fresh in my mind.

Just hoping to help backers make informed choices. I for one do not think anyone should back this (I don't support plagiarism at all... and there are way too many red flags on this one) but I can't blame people for taking a calculated risk on this... since all KS carry risk and this does offer good value for the cost potentially.
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eflin wrote:

I'm trying to list both sides here and I've seen many voice this opinion. And AvP is delivering (albeit slowly) so it's not fact that they are not. It is only fact that they are significantly late and backers have good reason to be concerned. It's a crummy situation and I totally feel for you... but they are still working towards it and their recent update does back up they still plan to deliver in full.

And the DOTA thing is covered in the plagiarism comment.

Again trying to be impartial... the only part that is specifically my opinion is the full disclosure at the end although it's impossible for me not to have some effect on the post (for example me labelling some of the points as minor etc). My personal opinion on this specific issue (the AvP backers) is I do think they'll deliver but it still won't be for a long time... and that they are moving assets to Archon on prupose to protect themselves.... and further I agree Prodos has not treated you well at all and I would not back any future products by them until they prove themselves elsewhere.

EDIT: I tried to address this specific point though with yours and SamandMaxes points. Is it better represented now? Thanks!

This is false. The company saying it's delivering is not delivering the product. It's not as if this company hasn't lied before. I don't think it's fair to say the company is delivering the product when there is no proof of this.

No, you saying that "there is no reason to believe they will not deliver" is not a fact. It is not impartial. That is your opinion and it is one that is highly contested.

As to being far along in the process: they have no rules. Without rules they have no game. They have a bunch of pretty pictures and miniatures that may or may not be final consumer-end sculpts.

EDIT: Suggesting that it "may be late" is also disingenuous. We have no idea if people will get anything!
 
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broken clock wrote:
This is false. The company saying it's delivering is not delivering the product. It's not as if this company hasn't lied before. I don't think it's fair to say the company is delivering the product when there is no proof of this.

No, you saying that "there is no reason to believe they will not deliver" is not a fact. It is not impartial. That is your opinion and it is one that is highly contested.

To be honest, I don't think these types of threads really help anyone. People should be going over the main thread in the game section that has made some amazing discoveries. It's worth the time investment. If people can get through that thread then they will most definitely walk away with a better understanding of the situation.

Well have they not delivered product yet? I was under the impression they had done two waves already.... but were currently stalled on wave 3 as they ran out of funds... but planned to continue as they made profit off other products (or sales on their page). So yes some people have received nothing... but some have. If this is untrue I will happily remove the whole claim from the list.

And no it is not an impartial statement. You are absolutely correct. It is a claim in the FOR camp though. The whole post is trying to be impartial but individual portions of the "for" and "against" camp are clearly going to differ/oppose each other. I imagine some "for" backers would be against plenty of the things in the "against" section. I am trying to keep each individual point as balanced and fact based as possible... but for some of them that is quite difficult (this being one of them clearly)

And this thread is helpful as you can't expect people with busy lives to read through over 300 posts on the BGG thread (some of them long) AND the FB posts (which are long) AND the KS comments (which are completely out of hand). It's a huge time investment. I am trying to offer a distilled version that will allow people to be more informed... but obviously not as informed as someone who read everything. If it helps even one person (which it has based on comments) then it is a success.

I myself read everything here... and everything on the FB yesterday (it's a different beast today).. but very little from the KS comments. So I tried to sum up my own findings to save others the effort. That is all.

I very much appreciate the input and am happy to modify things if you have suggestions... but just saying it's wrong and dismissing the thread does not really allow me to do anything.

broken clock wrote:
EDIT: Suggesting that it "may be late" is also disingenuous. We have no idea if people will get anything!
Really? This is true of ALL kickstarters. Delays happen (and in this case Prodos' track record imply it is likely)... I don't see anything unfair about that statement.
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eflin wrote:

Well have they not delivered product yet? I was under the impression they had done two waves already.... but were currently stalled on wave 3 as they ran out of funds... but planned to continue as they made profit off other products (or sales on their page). So yes some people have received nothing... but some have. If this is untrue I will happily remove the whole claim from the list.

And no it is not an impartial statement. You are absolutely correct. It is a claim in the FOR camp though. The whole post is trying to be impartial but individual portions of the "for" and "against" camp are clearly going to differ/oppose each other. I imagine some "for" backers would be against plenty of the things in the "against" section. I am trying to keep each individual point as balanced and fact based as possible... but for some of them that is quite difficult (this being one of them clearly)

And this thread is helpful as you can't expect people with busy lives to read through over 300 posts on the BGG thread (some of them long) AND the FB posts (which are long) AND the KS comments (which are completely out of hand). It's a huge time investment. I am trying to offer a distilled version that will allow people to be more informed... but obviously not as informed as someone who read everything. If it helps even one person (which it has based on comments) then it is a success.

I myself read everything here... and everything on the FB yesterday (it's a different beast today).. but very little from the KS comments. So I tried to sum up my own findings to save others the effort. That is all.

I very much appreciate the input and am happy to modify things if you have suggestions... but just saying it's wrong and dismissing the thread does not really allow me to do anything.

broken clock wrote:
EDIT: Suggesting that it "may be late" is also disingenuous. We have no idea if people will get anything!
Really? This is true of ALL kickstarters. Delays happen (and in this case Prodos' track record imply it is likely)... I don't see anything unfair about that statement.

Dude, it's unfair because there are a slew of people saying they have NOTHING. They have no reason to think that they will ever receive anything.

Heck, scroll up, Sam just said that there are wave 1 people have not received anything! That's bonkers!
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Isn't that covered by the counterpoint in quotes right below it though? I think the summation of the two paints a pretty fair picture of the two sides?

We might just have to agree to disagree on this one I guess. If you have a suggestion on how to make it more fair in your opinion, then I'm happy to hear it.

EDIT: I modified the "for" point slightly to try and help address your concerns better. I'm guessing you will still not find it fair but hopefully it helps. Again this is not my specific view (I for one would be very worried it will deliver) but it is one of the points I have seen made and they are right that all KS carry inherent risk of this.
 
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Prodos has delivered SOME AvP stuff to some backers. They are doing 'wave' shipping but there are still backers who have not received a damned thing from wave 1. Wave 2 when it did ship was actually a combined wave 1 and 2 shipment for folks that got anything in that wave. Wave 3 is To Be Delivered at a Date To Be Determined.

Currently if you buy more stuff on the Prodos web store they will ship wave 1 and wave 2 items they owe you with that order. That seems to have worked for some but not all people who have done so (I know of a couple that got shipments missing items that have been approved or did not contain the full quantity ordered.)

So yes, Prodos has indeed delivered some product to some backers. But not every backer has even gotten the main box game yet.
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Man and now the creator is bashing backers... shake

Not helpful to the discussion here but does not speak well.

EDIT: for some reason the link does not work to go straight to his comment... so I'll just paste the comment here

"Creator Load Board Game about 1 hour ago

John,
You are paid Troll, you say you backed at Epic level but you actually backed for $1. This is your first backed project. What happened? Your guys ran out of accounts to bash with and needed to create new ones?"

This was on May 26, 2016 around 6:00 pm EST

To be fair this backer was not being helpful (and kind of a troll) but he wasn't being rude from what I saw either. Kind of silly/ridiculous if anything. Just my own opinion though so not adding to the OP
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eflin wrote:
Man and now the creator is bashing backers... shake

Not helpful to the discussion here but does not speak well.

EDIT: for some reason the link does not work to go straight to his comment... so I'll just paste the comment here

"Creator Load Board Game about 1 hour ago

John,
You are paid Troll, you say you backed at Epic level but you actually backed for $1. This is your first backed project. What happened? Your guys ran out of accounts to bash with and needed to create new ones?"

This was on May 26, 2016 around 6:00 pm EST

Yeah, that was really weird. It now seems that he is intentionally trolling, where as before he was just asking questions. The whole thing is really messed up.
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Yeah after he was called a troll by the creator he got worse... but still the creator should be professional and know better. The creator didn't chime in much today and that's what he decides to start with?

Still it will be interesting to see what rules 2.0 looks like. He said they're coming tomorrow.

EDIT: Reading more of this guys comments... its hilarious. I wish the comments section was that entertaining earlier in the day. Still he is definitely not being helpful...
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In the last update they say that production of miniatures have already started and show pictures of some boxes full of minis :
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-boa...

That should probably be added to the FOR side.
 
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Samko wrote:
In the last update they say that production of miniatures have already started and show pictures of some boxes full of minis :
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-boa...

That should probably be added to the FOR side.

They showed similar pictures during the AvP KS. And about 2 years later they still had those same boxes filled with the same figures and backers had nothing.

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jakecarol wrote:
Samko wrote:
In the last update they say that production of miniatures have already started and show pictures of some boxes full of minis :
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-boa...

That should probably be added to the FOR side.

They showed similar pictures during the AvP KS. And about 2 years later they still had those same boxes filled with the same figures and backers had nothing.


Do we have proof of this?
 
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broken clock wrote:
jakecarol wrote:
Samko wrote:
In the last update they say that production of miniatures have already started and show pictures of some boxes full of minis :
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1915792245/load-the-boa...

That should probably be added to the FOR side.

They showed similar pictures during the AvP KS. And about 2 years later they still had those same boxes filled with the same figures and backers had nothing.


Do we have proof of this?

Well, seeing as Prodos had the KS page taken down, proof is a bit hard. They showed the pictures in one of the project updates.

I suspect if you are willing to go through the Dakka thread you can find them.

EDIT: I've been reminded, the pictures and Jarek's comments may have been from the now no-longer-there FaceBook group and not the KS updates.

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I still find it suspiciously convenient they are having financial problems being able to fulfill the AvP Kickstarter...but coming up with funds to launch an entirely new and different project is no problem.

Had all these funds been put towards AvP, that Kickstarter would likely have been MUCH more along it's way to being done, if not already done. Then, this new Kickstarter could happen without nearly the level of drama, and Prodos/Archon could operate with a better reputation.
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I don't know if this has been posted yet, but here is a link to a 249 page thread about the mess that is the AVP Kickstarter.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556916.page
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Giant_Monster wrote:
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but here is a link to a 249 page thread about the mess that is the AVP Kickstarter.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/556916.page

Happy to include this but care to summarize some of the key points? A big part of this thread is trying to summarize all the info out there. I certainly don't have time to read through it but tried to cover the AvP briefly in point #6 of the against section.


thetang22 wrote:
I still find it suspiciously convenient they are having financial problems being able to fulfill the AvP Kickstarter...but coming up with funds to launch an entirely new and different project is no problem.

Had all these funds been put towards AvP, that Kickstarter would likely have been MUCH more along it's way to being done, if not already done. Then, this new Kickstarter could happen without nearly the level of drama, and Prodos/Archon could operate with a better reputation.

Well they clearly made a business decision to put Unicast as their top priority... and honestly it looks great so I see why... but I agree that clearly has hampered their ability to finish AvP and they likely could have finished it much faster (likely be done actually) with the funds they instead put to Archon.

In fact I think this is the primary reason they separated Archon out. So UniCast could be separated from AvP among many other benefits outlined previously (distancing themselves PR wise... protecting themselves if AvP goes South and impacts Prodos.... etc). They have gone to great efforts to separate it completely from Prodos both financially and legally even if practically you cannot argue the numerous links between them.

The flip side is you can't expect them to put all other business ventures on hold for AvP... their recent AvP post about how the funds got used up (the new licensing deal) does make sense... but they certainly could have been more honest and forthcoming about it and definitely could have done more for their backers. It also does not excuse all the poor decisions and management they did. I am far from an expert on this topic though so I don't want to speak for it.

This is all just my personal opinion though :- )
 
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eflin wrote:
Happy to include this but care to summarize some of the key points? A big part of this thread is trying to summarize all the info out there. I certainly don't have time to read through it but tried to cover the AvP briefly in point #6 of the against section.

Honestly, there is just way too much stuff to list considering how long backers have been waiting to get their stuff.

If I had to sum up that thread in a single sentence it would be "Prodos has no trouble lying about their issues and blaming other people for them."
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eflin wrote:
The flip side is you can't expect them to put all other business ventures on hold for AvP.

I disagree with this. I would most certainly expect them to hold off on future plans (LOAD) if those future plans put the existing obligations (AvP) in serious jeopardy. That's bad business etiquette. If you've got the capability of doing both at the same time, by all means go for it. But if one has to come at the expense of the other - you do the existing obligation first.

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