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Subject: Deploying Bantha On top of Figures rss

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Jack Liu
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If the rebels are on top of or very close to a deployment point and the Imperial deploys a Bantha on them, and therefore displacing them.

Does that trigger the damage from the Bantha's "trample" ability?

I know that deployment counts as "entering a space" but does it count as "end movement" as well?
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Eric Phillips
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If the rebels are on the point or near ot, then you deploy as close as possible. You cannot deploy on top of rebels and displace them. At least I can't find anything in the Rules allowing that.
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Jack Liu
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It's massive so it can be on the same spot as rebels and move them. Same as ATST
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Eric Phillips
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Page 17 RRG states

Quote:
A massive figure can end it's movement in spaces that contain blocking terrain and/or other figures. Any figures in its spaces are pushed to the closest empty space of it's controller's choice (taking impassable terrain into account). The player moving the Massive figure pushes friendly figures first, and then other players push their figures.


That's the only mention of pushing figures in the massive section and it only discusses movement. I'd say that combined with the language in the deployment section make it pretty clear that you can't deploy to an occupied space regardless of massive.



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My understanding is that when you deploy a figure, it is placed on the map. A figure can be placed anywhere it can end its movement.

As such, the Bantha can be deployed on top of the Rebels.

[Edit]And since the only time a massive figure can push figures underneath it out of the way is when it ends its movement, I'd say deployment has to count as ending movement, therefore you can activate Trample
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Eric Phillips
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Ah, I see that now. Didn't realize place was a keyword there.

But I still don't think that it counts as ending movement, just entering a space.
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Ah you ninja'd my edit - see my post above.
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Joe
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Deployment (RRG pg 10) - When a player deploys figures, he places the Deployment card faceup and in the ready position on the table. Then, he places all figures from that group in and as close as possible to the location indicated by the campaign guide or deployment zone.

Place (RRG pg 20) - A player cannot choose to place a figure in a space where it cannot end its movement, such as in a space containing another figure, blocking terrain, or impassable terrain.

As mentioned, Massive can be placed on figures, blocking terrain, or impassable terrain. From this, I would say a massive figure always has to be deployed on top of a deployment zone unless walls prevent it.

And yeah, no trample without movement. Fun idea though devil
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Stl0369 wrote:
And yeah, no trample without movement. Fun idea though devil


But consider:
RRG p16 wrote:
A Massive figure can end its movement in spaces that contain
blocking terrain and/or other figures. Any figures in its spaces
are pushed into the closest empty space of its controller’s
choice (taking impassible terrain into account)


This kind of implies placing a figure counts as movement. If it doesn't, the push doesn't get triggered and you are left with the massive figure occupying squares still occupied by other figures.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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I have always treated this as movement and that deploying in such a way to cover hostile figures would cause trample damage.

You clearly have to push the overlapped figures, so the damage will happen, as it has the same condition.
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Joe
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A massive figure can be placed on top of another figure. As has been pointed out many times in these forums, go by the terminology over interpreting things. The RRG uses the term place, not move.

I can easily see the thematic reasoning trample would activate, but not from the rules. It wouldn't hurt to send in a question to FFG, but I'd play no trample from bringing a unit onto the play area.
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Pasi Ojala
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Practically Massive must be deployed on an active deployment point regardless of other figures (unless the other figures are Massive).

You can search for our previous discussion.
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Here is the rule on pushing figures out of the way of a Massive figure:
RRG - Massive wrote:
• A Massive figure can end its movement in spaces that contain
blocking terrain and/or other figures. Any figures in its spaces
are pushed into the closest empty space of its controller’s
choice (taking impassable terrain into account). The player
moving the Massive figure pushes friendly figures first, and
then other players push their figures.

Note that figures are only pushed out of the way when a Massive figure ends its movement. If a placed figure does not end its movement for the purposes of Stampede, then it would not end its movement for the purposes of pushing away the other figures.

This would be absurd, as we know it's not intended for two figures to continue to occupy the same space for any extended period of time. Thus, as we know we can place and push away other figures, the Massive igure must be ending movement when it is placed. Thus, Stampede will definitely activate, as it uses the same wording.

If that's not enough to convince you, would you also argue that a Nexu that uses Pounce is not moving? It is removed from its current spaces and placed in new ones via a place mechanic, so if you want to argue the placed Bantha isn't moving then neither is the pouncing Nexu.
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Eric Phillips
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I have no issues with an interpretation that involves placement not being movement. Nowhere in the "Place" section does it discuss movement and nowhere in the "movement" section does it discuss "Place."

They are two completely separate concepts. When you place the Nexu you pick it up off the board and put it back down as opposed to moving it through the spaces in between.
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Jimmie Andersson
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Pinewood74 wrote:
I have no issues with an interpretation that involves placement not being movement. Nowhere in the "Place" section does it discuss movement and nowhere in the "movement" section does it discuss "Place."

They are two completely separate concepts. When you place the Nexu you pick it up off the board and put it back down as opposed to moving it through the spaces in between.


I agree with this, the problem is that that reasoning creates an issue that the massive figures can be placed on top of figures but that since the order of pushing is determined by the moving player and no such player exists the game breaks down and is now totally unplayable!!!
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Exactly, Jimmie.

If you want to play that the Bantha cannot Trample units, then you cannot place Massive figures over other figures. Doing so would mean you are treating the Trample rule and the displacement of other figures rules inconsistently.
 
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Joe
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Treating them separately isn't totally unplayable.

Trample is for when you end movement.
Deployment allows you to place figures.

Movement and Place have separate categories in the RRG as they are different things. However, both do allow a massive figure to push other figures out of the way.
 
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Jorgen Peddersen
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Stl0369 wrote:
However, both do allow a massive figure to push other figures out of the way.

Can you back that up with a rule, please? The only rule I'm aware of for Massive figures pushing other figures out of the way is the one I quoted above. It does not mention placement at all and only triggers when you end movement, just like Trample.
 
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This borrows directly from descent 2nd - when deploying you deploy as close to the deployment zone as possible. The deployed unit must be placed in a spot, as close as possible, to the deployment zone.

As for swia - This is what we've been doing since the game came out - imagine if the rebel had a unit on the deployment space- the rules don't say move the rebel or that the rebel blocks the deployment - but that the deployed unit is placed in the nearest unoccupied space.

This happened all the time in descent and it was always fun to chain my own units so the nearest deployment space for a massive figure was down a long hallway!
 
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necksnappingadam wrote:
the rules don't say move the rebel or that the rebel blocks the deployment - but that the deployed unit is placed in the nearest unoccupied space.

The deployment rules do not mention empty or unoccupied, or even valid. But other rules let us believe the space the figure is deployed to must be valid to enter for that figure (see enter and movement and ending movement for Massive).

Large Figures says that if an effect places a large figure (like deployment), the controller decides the orientation and it can be placed in any legal space as long as part of the figure is in the space instructed (deployment point). And it is legal for Massive to end movement on top of figures. Thus a massive figure should be deployed on top of the deployment point (the closest possible space) as long as there are no other Massive figures preventing that.


(I played with the other interpretation once, thinking it was clever, but have come to the other conclusion after that. Blocking the deployment point still works for Mobile, i.e. for the Nexu.)
 
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Joe
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Clipper wrote:
Stl0369 wrote:
However, both do allow a massive figure to push other figures out of the way.

Can you back that up with a rule, please? The only rule I'm aware of for Massive figures pushing other figures out of the way is the one I quoted above. It does not mention placement at all and only triggers when you end movement, just like Trample.


I see what you are saying and I think it is an oversight in the rules that needs to be addressed by FFG.

The rules say a figure cannot be deployed and placed where it cannot end its movement. This reasons that a massive figure can be placed on non-massive figures as it can end movement on them. However, the only reference to massive units pushing other figures out from underneath are in regards to ending its movement.

Until official word is given, I would play that the deployed massive figure does push other figures out from underneath.

As for using Trample, it relies on ending movement, not being placed. If the Bantha Rider can trample when it's deployed, you could then argue it can't move during its turn as it already ended movement on top of another figure.
 
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Stl0369 wrote:
[q="Clipper"]Until official word is given, I would play that the deployed massive figure does push other figures out from underneath.

As for using Trample, it relies on ending movement, not being placed.

But that's a bit hypocritical- you are treating a deployment as a movement in terms of pushing figures, but saying it's not a movement with regards to trample.
 
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Joe
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jindianajonz wrote:
Stl0369 wrote:
[q="Clipper"]Until official word is given, I would play that the deployed massive figure does push other figures out from underneath.

As for using Trample, it relies on ending movement, not being placed.

But that's a bit hypocritical- you are treating a deployment as a movement in terms of pushing figures, but saying it's not a movement with regards to trample.


Correct. Currently there is no reconciliation in the rules. I find it the lesser evil to infer one change then to infer several.

As I've said, it needs clarification from FFG.
 
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Stl0369 wrote:
If the Bantha Rider can trample when it's deployed, you could then argue it can't move during its turn as it already ended movement on top of another figure.


That limitation is per activation. It wouldn't apply here.

Stl0369 wrote:
Correct. Currently there is no reconciliation in the rules. I find it the lesser evil to infer one change then to infer several.


The only evil is not allowing the Bantha to express itself.
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Joe
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Oh no, I've turned into a Bantha buzzkill!! surprise
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