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Combat Commander: Europe» Forums » Rules

Subject: "Friendly" Hexes rss

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Ethan McKinney
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Chad, the glossary defines a friendly hex as, "A hex occupied by a friendly
unit. An Objective hex [2.3] under your control and not containing an enemy unit. Fortifications are never “friendly”."

I'm confused about fortifications. The most literal reading (I think...) is that while fortifications themselves are never "friendly" or "enemy," a hex containing a fortification can be friendly. If that was the intent, I would have expected the sentence about fortifications to come right after the definition of friendly units, weapons and radios. Having it separated from that, and at the end of the hex definitions, makes me think that it might relate more to hexes. This was reinforced by the construction used in all of the other events and such; they refer specifically to "friendly-occupied" hexes.

As I thought about this, I began to conceive that the rule might be intended to prevent players from placing heroes into pillboxes. Or something. Please let me know that I'm wrong and that I can place a Hero in a pillbox or other fortification.

Also, in 3.3.1.1, "it's" should not have an apostrophe. It's a possessive, not a contraction.
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beresford dickens
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I think the point is that Fortifications are terrain features that do not affect hex ownership and do not belong to anybody. They are just occupied by any unit that happens to be in the hex at the same time. So though an Event may allow you to place a Foxhole in a 'friendly hex', you do not 'own' the Foxhole and it does not in itself contribute to making the hex friendly.
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David desJardins
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I think the point of the statement is that wire and mines hinder both sides equally.
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Chadwik
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Quote:
If that was the intent, I would have expected the sentence about fortifications to come right after the definition of friendly units, weapons and radios.

*shrug* perhaps I could have. I felt it was better to first define what was "friendly" and then to list what wasn't. I don't remember specifically why the Fortification exception was put there (and in the "enemy" entry) but it had something to do with player confusion during playtesting due to an Action or Event or something.

Quote:
Having it separated from that, and at the end of the hex definitions, makes me think that it might relate more to hexes.

Why would you infer that? "Fortifications are never friendly." is a complete sentence and should be read as such. Further, rule F100.1 defines exactly what a Fortification is.

Quote:
This was reinforced by the construction used in all of the other events and such; they refer specifically to "friendly-occupied" hexes.

Which ones? Entrench maybe. And I know that the Hero Event doesn't use that phrase: it just says "friendly".

Quote:
Please let me know that I'm wrong and that I can place a Hero in a pillbox or other fortification.

Yes, you can place a Hero into a hex containing a Fortification as long as that hex is "friendly". The presence or lack thereof of a Fortification is entirely irrelevant.

Quote:
Also, in 3.3.1.1, "it's" should not have an apostrophe.

Thank you: this has been fixed.
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Ethan McKinney
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First off, the point of my long explanation of my thought process was to head off (unsuccessfully) the "are you an idiot?" questions.

Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
If that was the intent, I would have expected the sentence about fortifications to come right after the definition of friendly units, weapons and radios.

*shrug* perhaps I could have. I felt it was better to first define what was "friendly" and then to list what wasn't. I don't remember specifically why the Fortification exception was put there (and in the "enemy" entry) but it had something to do with player confusion during playtesting due to an Action or Event or something.

Quote:
Having it separated from that, and at the end of the hex definitions, makes me think that it might relate more to hexes.

Why would you infer that? "Fortifications are never friendly." is a complete sentence and should be read as such. Further, rule F100.1 defines exactly what a Fortification is.


Because humans expect like to be placed with like and differences to be separated.

Also, because you're too good at writing rules. Almost every little phrasing in the rules has some meaning.

I perhaps did not express myself clearly in my original posting. The first sentence of the definition refers to counters. The second and third sentences refer to hexes. The fourth sentence (fortifications) apparently refers to counters; but my thought was, "If so, why is it separated from the other counter-related sentence?" Also, when I originally thought about this, I had not yet gone back and studied every relevant rule in great depths, so I thought that part of the purpose might be to prevent infantry guns from suddenly appearing inside pillboxes. (Yes, I know, none of the Actions or Events actually work that way, but I still don't have them all committed to memory.)

Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
This was reinforced by the construction used in all of the other events and such; they refer specifically to "friendly-occupied" hexes.

Which ones? Entrench maybe. And I know that the Hero Event doesn't use that phrase: it just says "friendly".


My point, exactly.

Every single Action and Event uses the construction "friendly-occupied hex," except for Hero. I studied the rules very, very closely before posting my question. Since the rules are completely consistent everywhere else, the exception seemed to have a purpose.

Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
Please let me know that I'm wrong and that I can place a Hero in a pillbox or other fortification.

Yes, you can place a Hero into a hex containing a Fortification as long as that hex is "friendly". The presence or lack thereof of a Fortification is entirely irrelevant.


Thank you for clarifying that. I was aware (as I stated up front) that I was probably over-thinking things, but the details aroused devilish thoughts.
 
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John McLintock
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I've checked the rulebook for the descriptions of actions and events, and I couldn't find any case which made this point about fortifications never being friendly relevant in play. So I'm left with the suspicion that the remark was left over from a previous iteration of the rules, or Chad was just being unnecessarily thorough.
 
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Chadwik
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Every single Action and Event uses the construction "friendly-occupied hex,"

Actually, with the sole exception of "Entrench" I don't see a single Action or Event that uses that phrase. Am I misunderstanding something here? Can you give me an example of a rule that uses the phrase "friendly-occupied"?

I guess I'm just a little lost here, Ethan. Is there a specific clarification or errata that you'd like to see? Or was this just a question? and has that question been answered to your satisfaction?
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Ethan McKinney
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I'm obviously delusional, but the question has been answered far beyond my satisfaction.
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Chadwik
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I'm obviously delusional

Quite right, and nobody here has ever doubted that for a moment.

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but the question has been answered far beyond my satisfaction.

Excellent!

Game on!
 
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John McLintock
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
Every single Action and Event uses the construction "friendly-occupied hex,"

Actually, with the sole exception of "Entrench" I don't see a single Action or Event that uses that phrase. Am I misunderstanding something here? Can you give me an example of a rule that uses the phrase "friendly-occupied"?

I guess I'm just a little lost here, Ethan. Is there a specific clarification or errata that you'd like to see? Or was this just a question? and has that question been answered to your satisfaction?

I think the question was whether the defintion of fortifications (as never friendly) has any practical effect on play.
 
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Chadwik
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I think the question was whether the defintion of fortifications (as never friendly) has any practical effect on play.

It either does and I just can't recall the specifics at the moment or it did and I never thought to remove the two relevant sentences from the glossary.
 
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John McLintock
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
I think the question was whether the defintion of fortifications (as never friendly) has any practical effect on play.

It either does and I just can't recall the specifics at the moment or it did and I never thought to remove the two relevant sentences from the glossary.

One of those, and I'm sure it's been a hard day's night Chad...
JMcL63 wrote:
I've checked the rulebook for the descriptions of actions and events, and I couldn't find any case which made this point about fortifications never being friendly relevant in play. So I'm left with the suspicion that the remark was left over from a previous iteration of the rules, or Chad was just being unnecessarily thorough.

Well, I don't know 'bout you, but I'm just here for the sake of talking about my favourite game of the moment while I haven't got an opponent in front of me with whom I could be playing it instead...
 
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beresford dickens
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Quote:
I think the question was whether the defintion of fortifications (as never friendly) has any practical effect on play.


Quote:
It either does and I just can't recall the specifics at the moment or it did and I never thought to remove the two relevant sentences from the glossary.


Got it here. 'Demolitions' and 'Hero'. The point is that if fortifications you placed WERE friendly you could remove them or place a hero in them without the hex being occupied or an owned objective.
 
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Miguel Borba
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Chad Jensen wrote:
Quote:
It either does and I just can't recall the specifics at the moment or it did and I never thought to remove the two relevant sentences from the glossary.


Chad, perhaps it has to do with players incorrectly feeling that wire or a minefield was enemy or friendly and thus only affected one group or the other. For example, if I incorrectly attributed my placement of a minefield or wire fortification, through an event or action, as being "friendly", I may come to the wrong conclusion that the minefield or wire counter would only impact my opponent's "enemy" force, but leave my "friendly" troops unaffected.

Perhaps other wargames allow players to place "friendly" minefields which only impact "enemy" units?

The fortification rules in CC are very clear about impacting any and all units in a hex containing a fortification marker. Perhaps you can remove the extra verbage about fortifications found in the Glossary under enemy and friendly in order to avoid further confusion?
 
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