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Subject: Here is everything wrong with Archron/Load the miniature game. rss

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Scott D
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...What, you didn't have enough duplicate threads already blindly shoveling hate and echoing the same thing that's already been mentioned in a bunch of threads and topics already on here...

Ok.


Fine.

The biggest problem with Archron/Load the board game is the crazy amount of people who just want to keep pouring fuel onto the fire to see the project burn. There is a bigger story beyond whats being represented in all these negative threads and I do think that the project, whilst it has had a few issues (which are being rectified), the bigger picture is that this is a very real project, that there are real backers (myself being one of them), who are risking real money on a project that will fund, will be fulfilled and hopefully delivered on time.

Sure its fun to to attack the project for whatever reasons you have. Its that mob mentality. everybody jumping to conclusions, making assumptions, believing everything that is written by members with their own agendas (and they do have an agenda, make no mistake).

I can see why new backers get scared off. and you know what. Good for them. They feel that its a risk and they don't want to back so more power to them. Nobody is forcing anybody to back this project. The people who are backing are the ones who can see through the negativity cloud that has been whipped up by people and can make their own choice.

This is what I see...a bunch of people with hate blinkers on (the eye coverings for horses if you didn't know). Its easy to loose sight of the bigger picture when 90% of what you read about the project is hate mail and postings. There are many reasons why this project will succeed and do well. Maybe one the flame war settles down and more rational minds can investigate, people will see past the issues and more into the actual project.

Sometimes you cant see the forest for the trees...
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Honestly i really wanted to remain optimistic. I really do. I even had an early bird pledge from day 1. But honestly, the red flags are pretty hard to ignore for me. Illogical hate is one thing, but when the campaign has this many missteps ( and a print and play that didnt do anything for me) I find it hard justifying keeping my pledge.

If you're backing it for the minis, good for you. I really hope the project delivers. For now, I'm sitting this one out.
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The project really does have tons of red flags. That doesn't mean it's guaranteed to fail, but pretending that they aren't there or that they are being made up by people with an agendas is how Archron built up a lot of the negativity in the first place.
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If you are in for the miniatures, then hopefully you will receive them in good conditions and to the level of quality promised.
But if you are in for the game, then I recommend you late pledge Rum and Bones. It is clearly the better game. LOAD is only a poor copy of R&B season 1. CMON even patched Season 1 with Season 2. LOAD carries over some Rum and Bones Season 1 mistakes.
So good luck.
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Ray Stantz
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I'd rather listen to the people showing the read flags than get burned (ask anyone who backed upfront) and if the game is any good I would purchase it at retail.
Considering the situation if I buy it retail I'll probably get it before the Kickstarter backers as well.
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Scott D
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Heishiro1976 wrote:
If you are in for the miniatures, then hopefully you will receive them in good conditions and to the level of quality promised.
But if you are in for the game, then I recommend you late pledge Rum and Bones. It is clearly the better game. LOAD is only a poor copy of R&B season 1. CMON even patched Season 1 with Season 2. LOAD carries over some Rum and Bones Season 1 mistakes.
So good luck.


Getting RnB2 too.
 
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I find the crazy pro supports more of a problem. If they like the game with it's current rewards, why need to pretend there is no more risk here that any other KS project. Just sit on you pledge and wait for the rewards to come.

Clearly there is risk in a KS project. Risk requires trust on the part of backers. Prodos/AR do not inspire trust. From a weak attempt at hiding their involvement, hiring staff from failed KS projects (DR), both Prodos and AR claiming ownership of the Unicast tech, they do not exactly look good.

Some people are making the crazy argument that this project is as safe as houses because Prodos/AR want to redeem themselves. If Prodos/AR want to redeem themselves, they would simply fix AvP asap.

I don't think anyone questions the fact that they have some minis and rules. The questions is what will they do the day after the KS closes and they have our money. Will it go to fixing AvP and paying for the DR casting? How can tell. It's a matter of trust.
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firewolf81 wrote:
Sometimes you cant see the forest for the trees...


That goes both ways. I have seen the comments on the Kickstarter and you and others can just as easily be accused of spinning the truth to suit your needs.

Such as making comments trying to make people believe Archon and Prodos have very little in common, yet if you look at who owns them it is obvious the connection is much closer than one owning the other.

Such as making comments downplaying the plagiarism and use of copyrighted material in the print and play documents. This wasn't just a simple case of similar mechanics and character homages. This was word for for copying of rules along with the names, likenesses, and powers of characters lifted from another source.

Such as dismissing the claims of others who have had issues with other Kickstarters created by the people involved with this one, going so far as to call them names.

Such as accepting the answers giving by the project creator as the "truth" despite those answers falling apart under scrutiny.

If you want to back the project that is fine, but you are doing a disservice to potential backers when you distort the truth to try and gain more backers, just so you can get as many stretch goals as possible. That is what I think your truth is, its not that people are attacking Archon, its that the attacks are keeping you from getting more stretch goals and that makes you mad.

As it now stands, there is enough money for you to get your game, you should be happy with that. Many project creators can't even get enough to fund their game.

SIDE NOTE: As a backer you might want to ask about those painting pledges as the math doesn't work out when you look at the standard rates of the company doing the painting. It seems they will be getting a huge discount and if the price is wrong, the money will have to be taken from elsewhere to cover the difference.

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You sound like one of the daily posters in the kick comment section. Do you guys work in shifts? Each shift appears to be around eight hours and it seems like you have to post at least once every 5 minutes. Is that true?
 
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firewolf81 wrote:
...What, you didn't have enough duplicate threads already blindly shoveling hate and echoing the same thing that's already been mentioned in a bunch of threads and topics already on here...

Ok.


Fine.

The biggest problem with Archron/Load the board game is the crazy amount of people who just want to keep pouring fuel onto the fire to see the project burn. There is a bigger story beyond whats being represented in all these negative threads and I do think that the project, whilst it has had a few issues (which are being rectified), the bigger picture is that this is a very real project, that there are real backers (myself being one of them), who are risking real money on a project that will fund, will be fulfilled and hopefully delivered on time.

Sure its fun to to attack the project for whatever reasons you have. Its that mob mentality. everybody jumping to conclusions, making assumptions, believing everything that is written by members with their own agendas (and they do have an agenda, make no mistake).

I can see why new backers get scared off. and you know what. Good for them. They feel that its a risk and they don't want to back so more power to them. Nobody is forcing anybody to back this project. The people who are backing are the ones who can see through the negativity cloud that has been whipped up by people and can make their own choice.

This is what I see...a bunch of people with hate blinkers on (the eye coverings for horses if you didn't know). Its easy to loose sight of the bigger picture when 90% of what you read about the project is hate mail and postings. There are many reasons why this project will succeed and do well. Maybe one the flame war settles down and more rational minds can investigate, people will see past the issues and more into the actual project.

Sometimes you cant see the forest for the trees...


What is wrong?
FACT number one: they tried to hide their identity. They are indeed Prodos

FACT #2 They being Prodos have still not delivered pldeges and they are now releasing multiple expansions and base game of AVP.

Fact#3 They were caught plagiarizing Rum and Bones and immediately withdrew the rules.

Fact#4 In some cases the heroes are almost exactly the same as DOTA.

Fact#5 The director has come one to the BGG forums and warned BGG of Legal Action to get this all shut down.

Fact #6 As mentioned before multiple shell companies.

Fact #7 the actual gameplay sucks and has gotten bad reviews. It's all about the miniatures.

Have a nice day!
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broken clock wrote:
You sound like one of the daily posters in the kick comment section. Do you guys work in shifts? Each shift appears to be around eight hours and it seems like you have to post at least once every 5 minutes. Is that true?


Yeah I have been wondering the same thing? What is their motivation? Ours is obviously to warn other consumers so they don't get burned like the folks from AVP. But what is theirs? Hmmmm?
 
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Giant_Monster wrote:
firewolf81 wrote:
Sometimes you cant see the forest for the trees...


That goes both ways. I have seen the comments on the Kickstarter and you and others can just as easily be accused of spinning the truth to suit your needs.

Such as making comments trying to make people believe Archon and Prodos have very little in common, yet if you look at who owns them it is obvious the connection is much closer than one owning the other.

Such as making comments downplaying the plagiarism and use of copyrighted material in the print and play documents. This wasn't just a simple case of similar mechanics and character homages. This was word for for copying of rules along with the names, likenesses, and powers of characters lifted from another source.

Such as dismissing the claims of others who have had issues with other Kickstarters created by the people involved with this one, going so far as to call them names.

Such as accepting the answers giving by the project creator as the "truth" despite those answers falling apart under scrutiny.

If you want to back the project that is fine, but you are doing a disservice to potential backers when you distort the truth to try and gain more backers, just so you can get as many stretch goals as possible. That is what I think your truth is, its not that people are attacking Archon, its that the attacks are keeping you from getting more stretch goals and that makes you mad.

As it now stands, there is enough money for you to get your game, you should be happy with that. Many project creators can't even get enough to fund their game.

SIDE NOTE: As a backer you might want to ask about those painting pledges as the math doesn't work out when you look at the standard rates of the company doing the painting. It seems they will be getting a huge discount and if the price is wrong, the money will have to be taken from elsewhere to cover the difference.



Amen!
 
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rvrratt wrote:
broken clock wrote:
You sound like one of the daily posters in the kick comment section. Do you guys work in shifts? Each shift appears to be around eight hours and it seems like you have to post at least once every 5 minutes. Is that true?


Yeah I have been wondering the same thing? What is their motivation? Ours is obviously to warn other consumers so they don't get burned like the folks from AVP. But what is theirs? Hmmmm?


Or what would it take for them to distrust the company they love so much?

I'm fairly certain we could find out that Prodos was behind the housing crash and there would still be people in that comment section telling us how divine their super secret miniature molding techniques are.
 
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rvrratt wrote:
broken clock wrote:
You sound like one of the daily posters in the kick comment section. Do you guys work in shifts? Each shift appears to be around eight hours and it seems like you have to post at least once every 5 minutes. Is that true?


Yeah I have been wondering the same thing? What is their motivation? Ours is obviously to warn other consumers so they don't get burned like the folks from AVP. But what is theirs? Hmmmm?


The game is already funded so the motivations are fairly straight forward.

The independent posters just want more miniatures in stretch goals. Greed.

Prodos wants more pledges of LOAD to help them finish AvP. Desperation.
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firewolf81 wrote:
...What, you didn't have enough duplicate threads already blindly shoveling hate and echoing the same thing that's already been mentioned in a bunch of threads and topics already on here...

Ok.


Fine.

The biggest problem with Archron/Load the board game is the crazy amount of people who just want to keep pouring fuel onto the fire to see the project burn. There is a bigger story beyond whats being represented in all these negative threads and I do think that the project, whilst it has had a few issues (which are being rectified), the bigger picture is that this is a very real project, that there are real backers (myself being one of them), who are risking real money on a project that will fund, will be fulfilled and hopefully delivered on time.

Sure its fun to to attack the project for whatever reasons you have. Its that mob mentality. everybody jumping to conclusions, making assumptions, believing everything that is written by members with their own agendas (and they do have an agenda, make no mistake).

I can see why new backers get scared off. and you know what. Good for them. They feel that its a risk and they don't want to back so more power to them. Nobody is forcing anybody to back this project. The people who are backing are the ones who can see through the negativity cloud that has been whipped up by people and can make their own choice.

This is what I see...a bunch of people with hate blinkers on (the eye coverings for horses if you didn't know). Its easy to loose sight of the bigger picture when 90% of what you read about the project is hate mail and postings. There are many reasons why this project will succeed and do well. Maybe one the flame war settles down and more rational minds can investigate, people will see past the issues and more into the actual project.

Sometimes you cant see the forest for the trees...


The game will fund.
The game will likely be produced.
The game will likely be shipped on time.

If that is all you care about, give them your monies and go about your business. That is what I would do anyway.

Unfortunately, there is waaay more to it than that. Prrsonally, I care about the issues with Prodos/Archon. I've never dealt with them, but seeing the underhandedness they are displaying here means I never will. Even if they create the greatest game since (insert favorite game here).

Irgnore or deny all you want. They don't deserve my hard-earned dollars.

That 22% profit shown on the pie-chart will likely be shifted to Prodos to finish AvP fulfillment. Which is a good thing for those backers.
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AGN1964 wrote:
I find the crazy pro supports more of a problem. If they like the game with it's current rewards, why need to pretend there is no more risk here that any other KS project. Just sit on you pledge and wait for the rewards to come.

Clearly there is risk in a KS project. Risk requires trust on the part of backers. Prodos/AR do not inspire trust. From a weak attempt at hiding their involvement, hiring staff from failed KS projects (DR), both Prodos and AR claiming ownership of the Unicast tech, they do not exactly look good.

Some people are making the crazy argument that this project is as safe as houses because Prodos/AR want to redeem themselves. If Prodos/AR want to redeem themselves, they would simply fix AvP asap.

I don't think anyone questions the fact that they have some minis and rules. The questions is what will they do the day after the KS closes and they have our money. Will it go to fixing AvP and paying for the DR casting? How can tell. It's a matter of trust.


That phrase now means the opposite of what it used to mean, FYI soblue
Says the guy who bought a house 10 years ago and the mortgage is still underwater due to the housing market crash...
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Look I have no reason to hate on Prodos. I never backed AVP because it looked to good to be true, and I wont back this for the same reason.
Anyone with any level of basic math can see the problems here.
Kickstarters are getting the game for 50% MSRP. That 50% reduction is from 100% of the profit. In other words, they have no wiggle room any more. To top it off they are going to test a new way to make miniatures. Have any of the current backers ever worked in a production line that introduced new technology? The rule of thumb is it NEVER works as intended which always means added costs.
This wouldn't be so bad, except there is no room for added costs. Hmmm. Things are getting dicier.
Now lets look at stretch goals, which were not planned completely through at the onset of the campaign. New molds. New minis. Individual molds for creeps. Go back to my point about new production methods. You are essentially doubling the molds.
Add in the paint level pledge. I was not alone in those that did the math. It doesn't add up. LOAD is using larger models than normal, and those models are more expensive. $999 for the painting and the game does not add up. Again, hits the too good to be true warning bells.

So, not everyone who is warning about LOAD has blind hatred as a motive. The numbers just do not add up, and the over optimistic over the top miniature games have a reputation as being the biggest KS busts in the board game world.

If you want to ignore the obvious flags with this campaign, by all means throw good money at it. Just do not come crying here if it turns into bad money.

Another thing most people who are trying to pump up a kickstarter forget is this: IF the game is that good, it WILL be available retail.

Before anyone says, what about the exclusives? My answer is buy some reaper minis and make your own heroes. This game is very easy to customize yourself with new equipment and new heroes.

In the end, I think those that are blindly following are doing far more harm than those trying to shed some light on the flaws.
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dkearns wrote:
[...]

Prodos wants more pledges of LOAD to help them finish AvP. Desperation.


However weird that may sound, i feel like your opinion is a pretty optimistic one.

One thing i do believe in the campaign is Prodos Archon making a statement on how both companies are unrelated one to another (to a degree, see below).

Imho, their intention is simply to severe remaining ties to the past, and NOT use the money from LOAD to atone for their past mistakes.
Rather, make it a "hey, we came clear with our project" and bank on that for future ones. Again, this is a feeling i have. In no way a statement or an attack.

But all things considered, that'd give me even less chances of pledging LOAD, due to the shady past, shady campaign opening (we're totally diff... ah, you busted us, okay, okay we have ties with but aren't Prodos (etc etc...)", the rules & character coincidental similarities & more.

Heck, weren't it for all those warning signs, considering the great minis, i'd pledge in spite of LOAD looking like not a great game (gameplay wise), just for the plastic.
However, those warning signs ARE there...
 
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Mabuchi wrote:
So, not everyone who is warning about LOAD has blind hatred as a motive. The numbers just do not add up, and the over optimistic over the top miniature games have a reputation as being the biggest KS busts in the board game world.


Agreed. I really don't hate Prodos or have any qualm with them. In fact... prior to this KS I had a favorable impression of them based on the Demigods Rising campaign... and how awesome UniCast looks.

After this campaign though... I still don't hate them... but I do not approve of their business methods at all... so they will not be getting my business (now or in the future). My only intention posting on these boards (both originally and now) has been for others to have all the information to make an informed decision (as it took me a long time to gather it all myself). If they choose to back the game, then great. I can see the appeal but it is far to risky an investment for me (and again I cannot support their business practices). I hope it works out for them and think they will eventually get some pretty awesome minis. I just want people to have the information so they can decide for themselves.

EDIT: Note the Demigods rising campaign was a disaster if that was not clear. It just was not Prodos' fault and in fact they are the ones potentially saving it... so I was (and still am) appreciative of their efforts there.
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Barlimann wrote:
Imho, their intention is simply to severe remaining ties to the past, and NOT use the money from LOAD to atone for their past mistakes.


In another BGG thread, prodos/archon/load publically acknowledged that they there was a quote that they are trapped in a situation where they have a run new kickstarters in order to complete previous campaigns.

EDIT: Couldn't find the quote in the big thread. I think Sam and Max had it but I couldn't find so softened the statement. Any help?
 
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....which doesn't mean they will or even intend to do so (nor does it mean they won't, except they specifically stated in LOAD they wouldn't do that. Then again, it's their word which, erm...)

I mean, AvP is a stain they will have all the trouble in the world making people forget. As far as i read, Prodos still send here and there a few due pledges, maybe because it'll push back any legal issue (we're complying, allbeit slowly) or even maybe because, well, they morally have to.
However, let's say that in a month / year / decade they fullfill their promises with AvP. Will that make them regain people's trust / forget what happened, and how backers were treated? I doubt it.

On the other hand, if a sister company handles its "first" KS well, at least it will have that to display in further projects.
If everyhting goes well, Archon will have a clean slate.

Just my 2 cents (and not a reason to back LOAD as a safe project. At all). edit : Just a "mmmmh, if i were you, i wouldn't expect THAT much change in the way AvP is delivered however succesful LOAD may be"
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Barlimann wrote:
edit : Just a "mmmmh, if i were you, i wouldn't expect THAT much change in the way AvP is delivered however succesful LOAD may be"

Great point and fair enough!
 
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firewolf81 wrote:
...What, you didn't have enough duplicate threads already blindly shoveling hate and echoing the same thing that's already been mentioned in a bunch of threads and topics already on here...

Ok.


Fine.


Blindly shovelling hate? Again folk have been pretty decent on these threads, you started a thread with a false title to mock serious issues with the project creator.


firewolf81 wrote:

The biggest problem with Archron/Load the board game.... fuel onto the fire to see the project burn. There is a bigger story beyond whats being represented in all these negative threads and I do think that the project, whilst it has had a few issues (which are being rectified)....

Sure its fun to to attack the project for whatever reasons you have. Its that mob mentality. everybody jumping to conclusions, making assumptions, believing everything that is written by members with their own agendas (and they do have an agenda, make no mistake).

I can see why new backers get scared off. and you know what. Good for them. They feel that its a risk and they don't want to back so more power to them. Nobody is forcing anybody to back this project. The people who are backing are the ones who can see through the negativity cloud that has been whipped up by people and can make their own choice.

This is what I see...a bunch of people with hate blinkers ...... Its easy to loose sight of the bigger picture when 90% of what you read about the project is hate mail and postings. There are many reasons why this project will succeed and do well.....


You seem to be seeing an awful lot of things, negativity and a mob mentality is a problem perhaps on the LOAD comments, not really here. A few issues? Well the NDA nonsense, dishonesty about who was behind the campaign. Misguided attitude about the project/backer relationship, spending AvP monies elsewhere i.e warzone. It is an untrustworthy company, yourself deliberately attempting to revise major problems as hate from others is a nonsense.

firewolf81 wrote:

If they stuff this up, I will be the first one to say, Yes, you guys were all right. I was wrong and lesson learned. I will never support them ever again.


Again, most commentary is directed towards the attitude and doings of Prodos/Archon, not the backers, nothing to do with backers, I don't think this campaign should be allowed, It takes the mick out of what KS represents. That aside if it does finally deliver, great for those who backed it. I doubt any of us will be here.
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It seems Mr. Drechsler has started his own League Of Ardent Defenders - of the Polish company. Well, one hopes you do not have to eat your words later on.

(I was burned by another project creator who ran four parallell kickstarters and was delayed on producing the first so he ran out of money and went bankrupt. Of course in that case I should have seen the warning bells as all projects were under the same company name, not concealed like in this case.)
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Common missconception: This is not about hate, this is about passion for Kickstarter.

All the people on this board have an interest that KS remains a serious platform for small game-developers. Bad projects and shady business practices of a few seemingly professional KS projects can easily trounce this plattform, making gamers turn away from it and taking their money with it, resulting in less funding for niche-games that a few people may love.

That's why even people who are not invested in this project, informs everyone about the risks and "red flags" of this campaign, because they don't want a lot of people to be disapointed in Kickstarter, because it will rub off on the whole plattform inevitably.

A serious publisher would've told upfront who they are, what mistakes they made in the past and what they do now to not fall into the same holes, no BGG users would've needed to start investigating.

Instead Prodos pulls off one failed PR stunt after another and most gamers here feel they are collectivly treated as dummies and that Prodos again and again insults their intellect only because of pure monetary goals.

It doesn't help that this game has so little original intellectual and creative content in gamemechanics (copied rules) and artwork like no other game I've seen before.
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