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Subject: Interesting comment in today's Android article... rss

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Chris J Davis
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"The Android universe is an amazingly rich setting, and if you are a fan of it, there are more exciting things just over the horizon, including a new take on the "murder mystery" that was one of the original conceits of the Android boardgame."

Here's the link to the article:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2016/5/31/android...

I'm guessing/hoping it's the long-sought-after (by me, at least) infinitely-replayable murder mystery game (probably enabled by use of an app, similarly to how Alchemists works).

Also interesting that they used the word "conceit", which in this context could very much be taken as having a double meaning when it comes to Android!
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Clyde W
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Oooh. That'd be amazing.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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Aren't they just hinting at the new Android Novels? (by Leigh Alexander and the other one?)
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Patrick G.
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Oh God(s) I hope they don't screw up Android and make it Clue. lol
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Chris J Davis
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corkysru wrote:
Oh God(s) I hope they don't screw up Android and make it Clue. lol


Well, they couldn't very easily make it much worse.
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Nicola Bocchetta
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Chris, have you had a look at Perfect Alibi

You might like it!
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Evan
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1. YES MORE ANDROID HOORAY
2. Contrary to Chris's weird need to remind us how much he hates this amazing game, I've always felt that they'd be doing the "conceit" a serious disservice by dumbing it down into a deduction game.
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Evan
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"Where's the envelope that you open at the end to find out whether you succeeded? It's like these people have never investigated a murder before!"
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Cameron McKenzie
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Alchemists is a great game and I would love to see an android game that can match it.

Why is Alchemists good? It's a deduction game with a predetermined solution, but information about the solution is sometimes hard to interpret and the way you gain the information actually makes sense.

It also has the benefit that deducing the solution is not the only point of the game. There are other ways to score points, even by publishing deliberately wrong theories. You can win the game even if you get some things wrong.

I think an Android game with the same qualities would be ideal. The investigators are not all dedicated to finding the truth, but that should at least be part of the game. There should be a killer, and finding the killer through investigation should be a major aspect of the game, but not the only part of the game.

I think where Android falls short is that you aren't really investigating to find the truth. Instead you are just investigating for points and resources and typically your reward for investigating well is that you get to decide who the killer is. It's backwards.
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Chris J Davis
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Faso74it wrote:
Chris, have you had a look at Perfect Alibi

You might like it!


Looks interesting! Added to wishlist.
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Chris J Davis
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kobold47 wrote:
1. YES MORE ANDROID HOORAY
2. Contrary to Chris's weird need to remind us how much he hates this amazing game, I've always felt that they'd be doing the "conceit" a serious disservice by dumbing it down into a deduction game.


How does adding deduction make it dumber?

And hey - I haven't reminded anyone how much I hate this game in at least a couple of years now! I'm allowed one!
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Chris J Davis
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kobold47 wrote:
"Where's the envelope that you open at the end to find out whether you succeeded? It's like these people have never investigated a murder before!"


You get Geek Gold for that.
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MasterDinadan wrote:
Alchemists is a great game and I would love to see an android game that can match it.

Why is Alchemists good? It's a deduction game with a predetermined solution, but information about the solution is sometimes hard to interpret and the way you gain the information actually makes sense.

It also has the benefit that deducing the solution is not the only point of the game. There are other ways to score points, even by publishing deliberately wrong theories. You can win the game even if you get some things wrong.

I think an Android game with the same qualities would be ideal. The investigators are not all dedicated to finding the truth, but that should at least be part of the game. There should be a killer, and finding the killer through investigation should be a major aspect of the game, but not the only part of the game.

I think where Android falls short is that you aren't really investigating to find the truth. Instead you are just investigating for points and resources and typically your reward for investigating well is that you get to decide who the killer is. It's backwards.


Basically couldn't have said it better myself.
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Evan
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bleached_lizard wrote:
kobold47 wrote:
1. YES MORE ANDROID HOORAY
2. Contrary to Chris's weird need to remind us how much he hates this amazing game, I've always felt that they'd be doing the "conceit" a serious disservice by dumbing it down into a deduction game.


How does adding deduction make it dumber?

And hey - I haven't reminded anyone how much I hate this game in at least a couple of years now! I'm allowed one!


"Dumbing it down" may have been a little strong, and I certainly don't mean to suggest that deduction mechanics are inherently dumber than non-deduction ones...
How about this: in my opinion, mysteries with omniscient-narrator resolutions are overused, unsubtle, and antithetical to the setting. If they can make a deduction game without that particular feature, I'm all for it.
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Sebastian Zarzycki
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MasterDinadan wrote:
Alchemists is a great game and I would love to see an android game that can match it.

Why is Alchemists good? It's a deduction game with a predetermined solution, but information about the solution is sometimes hard to interpret and the way you gain the information actually makes sense.

It also has the benefit that deducing the solution is not the only point of the game. There are other ways to score points, even by publishing deliberately wrong theories. You can win the game even if you get some things wrong.

I think an Android game with the same qualities would be ideal. The investigators are not all dedicated to finding the truth, but that should at least be part of the game. There should be a killer, and finding the killer through investigation should be a major aspect of the game, but not the only part of the game.

I think where Android falls short is that you aren't really investigating to find the truth. Instead you are just investigating for points and resources and typically your reward for investigating well is that you get to decide who the killer is. It's backwards.


How on earth would "finding the killer" work in a board game, with predetermined components? Just have few scenarions and thats it? How would you envision "finding out the murderer" in a competitive environment, where players play to win?

Android is a great game EXACTLY BECAUSE they didn't try to achieve goals they couldn't possibly achieve in a game.
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Cameron McKenzie
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Through the use of an app, exactly as Alchemists does it.
Don't say that the goals are impossible to achieve just becuase you can't think of a way to achieve them.
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rattkin wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
Alchemists is a great game and I would love to see an android game that can match it.

Why is Alchemists good? It's a deduction game with a predetermined solution, but information about the solution is sometimes hard to interpret and the way you gain the information actually makes sense.

It also has the benefit that deducing the solution is not the only point of the game. There are other ways to score points, even by publishing deliberately wrong theories. You can win the game even if you get some things wrong.

I think an Android game with the same qualities would be ideal. The investigators are not all dedicated to finding the truth, but that should at least be part of the game. There should be a killer, and finding the killer through investigation should be a major aspect of the game, but not the only part of the game.

I think where Android falls short is that you aren't really investigating to find the truth. Instead you are just investigating for points and resources and typically your reward for investigating well is that you get to decide who the killer is. It's backwards.


How on earth would "finding the killer" work in a board game, with predetermined components? Just have few scenarions and thats it? How would you envision "finding out the murderer" in a competitive environment, where players play to win?

Android is a great game EXACTLY BECAUSE they didn't try to achieve goals they couldn't possibly achieve in a game.


It can be achieved, because Alchemists has done it.
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MasterDinadan wrote:

I think where Android falls short is that you aren't really investigating to find the truth. Instead you are just investigating for points and resources and typically your reward for investigating well is that you get to decide who the killer is. It's backwards.


You are finding the truth. The truth just isn't determined or decided before the game starts.
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MasterDinadan wrote:
Through the use of an app, exactly as Alchemists does it.
Don't say that the goals are impossible to achieve just becuase you can't think of a way to achieve them.


Don't reply to comments, before making sure you understood them. Android was released in 2008, the app route weren't a viable path then.

Alchemists are not about finding the "truth" or even not about deduction in a standard "solve the murder" sense. It's a sudoku game played on a sheet of paper, basing in tests. You don't even have to do it to win. You can publish theories and piggyback on others. Ideal matrix solution is hardly needed for the game. Alchemists does its own thing, but it's not there to solve the same problem the Android's creators were trying to solve. Maybe the new game will do it differently, who knows. I don't feel like there was ever something wrong with Android.
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rattkin wrote:
MasterDinadan wrote:
Through the use of an app, exactly as Alchemists does it.
Don't say that the goals are impossible to achieve just becuase you can't think of a way to achieve them.


Don't reply to comments, before making sure you understood them. Android was released in 2008, the app route weren't a viable path then.


Sorry, but I can't telepathically know that you meant "at the time". If that's what you meant then you need to say it.

Quote:
Alchemists are not about finding the "truth" or even not about deduction in a standard "solve the murder" sense. It's a sudoku game played on a sheet of paper, basing in tests. You don't even have to do it to win. You can publish theories and piggyback on others. Ideal matrix solution is hardly needed for the game. Alchemists does its own thing, but it's not there to solve the same problem the Android's creators were trying to solve. Maybe the new game will do it differently, who knows. I don't feel like there was ever something wrong with Android.


I'm imagining that with an app, the app would be able to generate evidence that makes sense and points towards an actual murderer. Characters would have alibis, evidence could be tampered with and contradictions could confuse things, but the app would ultimately know who committed the crime.
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bleached_lizard wrote:

I'm imagining that with an app, the app would be able to generate evidence that makes sense and points towards an actual murderer. Characters would have alibis, evidence could be tampered with and contradictions could confuse things, but the app would ultimately know who committed the crime.


If that's the direction FFG goes (a deterministic solution to solve) then that's fine. I'll probably get it and enjoy it. But I always thought the nebulous nature of the murder to be one of Android's features.
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captainraffi wrote:

But I always thought the nebulous nature of the murder to be one of Android's features.


    Yeah, and in spite of it not matching the typical one-hour TV drama the "likely got it more or less correct" ending that plays out in Android is much closer to the endings in real detective work. They're nebulous. Most murderers don't spontaneously spew out how they committed their crime just prior to the last ad break. In virtually all crimes the ending is muddier. That may not provide a satisfying closure at the end of the game, but I'll be honest, I've never considered "satisfying closure" to be Android's goal. I think winning on points while sending the wrong guy to jail won't be any better. For some players it will be worse.

    Android is truly a game that's about the journey. If it had card expansions that added new detectives, that alone would be worth the price of purchase and give the game a lot more legs. Truth be told I was much more worried about my character than I was about the murder when I've played, and I'd love to have new detectives to play, or follow-on decks for the next chapter in the lives of the original ones. Wouldn't be hard to create or sell, but there just may not be enough copies out in the world to justify publishing them.

    Android is not a game for everyone. Sure am glad I played it though, because it's a unique experience. It's one of the few moments in gaming, i.e., one of the few particular plays in my life, that I still think about.

             S.


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rattkin wrote:

Don't reply to comments, before making sure you understood them. Android was released in 2008, the app route weren't a viable path then.


In my comment, to which you replied, I was discussing what I want from a future Android game, one that will come out in 2016 or later. But you seemed to think I am talking about the 2008 game.
I feel that you replied to my comment without understanding it, which is fine because I am happy to clarify anything which was unclear.
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bleached_lizard wrote:

I'm imagining that with an app, the app would be able to generate evidence that makes sense and points towards an actual murderer. Characters would have alibis, evidence could be tampered with and contradictions could confuse things, but the app would ultimately know who committed the crime.


And all this would be stored in app's memory. See where I'm getting with this? It would be, in essence, a video game. There's no easy way to translate random story elements and solutions to other static elements of board game, unless you just number cards from 1 to 100 and the app will tell you, that card 45 is now "Library". But that would be very cumbersome to use, not to mention that you would question why are you playing board game at all.

If you want to play a murder deduction game, there's a very good one for you - play Sherlock Holmes Consulting Detective. There's a story, there are suspects, there is deduction and final score. But it is, in essence, a cooperative (if not solo) game. You play it together.

Now, how should a game about finding the actual culprit of the murder work in a competitive environment? Players would go around and gather clues. Simultaneously? In turns? Who would win? The first play to guess the murderer? Guess what. That game also exists - it's called (quite similarly to the previous one) Watson & Holmes. Play it, see if you like it. I didn't. The competitive aspect just wasn't working imho for this kind of game, it felt pretty solitaire.

What I'm trying to say, I guess, is that Android really done lots of things well and avoided the traps of competitive mystery "solving", while preserving a lot of meaningful player interaction. If there is a better way to do it, I'm the first in line to get such a game, based in Android universe. But if they come up with one, I feel that it will be very different from Android. The "new take" suggests it.
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Android is based on Philip K Dick style of sci-fi noir, not episodes of Murder She Wrote.
The murder in act 1 is really just the catalyst for damaged protagonist to begin to discover the much larger conspiracy while simultaneously confronting his own demons. No one really gives a shit if the butler did it by act 3.
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