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Subject: Even steven trading rss

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Brendan Riley
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Hi All,

On the recent episode of Talk About Board Games Podcast, Fred commented that it was difficult to do trades on BGG because many people expect to get a bargain and/or trade up, especially if they're the one being offered the game. I have seen this advice offered elsewhere as well.

Have you experienced this? Are you a perpetrator of it?

I am curious to know:
1 - Is there currently an avenue for people who want to do an Even Steven trade (two games that are relatively the same, moneywise) separate from the other mechanisms already in place?

2 - would there be interest in this sort of thing?

I was imagining a once-a-month renewed thread in which people posted games they were interested in even-steven trading. They would be responsible for marking their wishlist with their wants, and for indicating in their post what games they have on offer and how much those games are worth using an independent measure (like, say, an average of the last 5 BGG marketplace sales). Then, traders could look at their wants list and see what games they have that meet the Even Steven standard.

Is this too complicated? Am I responding to a problem that doesn't really exist? WHAT IS THE ANSWER?!?!
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wombat929 wrote:
I am curious to know:
1 - Is there currently an avenue for people who want to do an Even Steven trade (two games that are relatively the same, moneywise) separate from the other mechanisms already in place?

yes, there is an avenue... it's called math trades and why years ago I switched from trying find, never mind agree'ing to a direct trade, to a system where there is no negotiation... let the computer software find the trades for you
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yeah math trades ftw

I think I'm a perpetuator of this.
The only way i'd be ok with trading games 1v1 is if its a local trade because trading down AND paying shipping huts hard when the games are valued at $20
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I do a lot of trading, and I aim to get trades to be as even as possible. Depending on how much I want the game I'm looking to get, I'm usually willing to take a minor loss in the trade on top of the cost to ship loss.

I do know there are some people on bgg who trade for the purpose of reselling the game they receive in the trade. For them, they always ask for a large disparity in value In their favor, in order for the trade to be profitable. Their visibility to people looking for trades is high as they usually have most games flagged as want in trade. I know they come up every time I look for trades.

I've made trades with some of those people in the past, and I'm happy with those trades. Through these trades I've been able to turn large ameritrash lots into euro games or vice versa, which can be difficult as people looking for ameritrash usually only have other ameritrash, and similar for euros. It's fairly unusual for me to find trade matches with another omnigamer. That being said, I could understand if in talking to the trade for profit people, you could become dispirited in the perceived fairness of the trading community as a whole.

Trades are possible. Math trades are great. You'll get ignored a lot and you won't make all the trades you think would be a good deal, because of a million reasons, but with persistence trading is ultimately sucessful.
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I've also had very good luck in the monthly Flea Market.

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/209506/flea-market-68...
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allismom3 wrote:
I've also had very good luck in the monthly Flea Market.

isn't that about "selling/buying" not "trading"?
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JeffyJeff wrote:
allismom3 wrote:
I've also had very good luck in the monthly Flea Market.

isn't that about "selling/buying" not "trading"?


Nope. Plenty of trading happening there too.


Right on the second line of the header:
Quote:
Geeks are welcome to set up "stalls" to offer specific items which can be bought, sold or traded


The monthly announcement geeklist is even titled the Flea Market Trade Lists Subscription Thread




As for the original subject I've had great success in direct person to person trading here on the Geek.

While it's true that there are some clearly looking to trade up my experience is that most are sincerely seeking what they think is a fair trade. I also get offers every month from people who are happily trading down because they care less about the value than they do having a game they want to play vs one just taking up space so it goes both ways.

Obviously "fair" is quite subjective when people are using wildly different metrics. Many, especially those new to trading, are basing valuation on the BGG marketplace. It's usually an eye opener when they get introduced to the "Price History" feature that shows just how many listings are completely out of step with what people actually pay for a given game.

Another example are people who regularly buy from a FLGS who are obviously going to have a completely different sense of a game's value than those who buy exclusively from OLGS.

In my experience it's just a numbers game. In p2p trades it's best to send out a LOT of geekmail offers and not be attached to any one yielding a response.

I also find it's generally not worth getting into a debate on valuation if the gap is clearly way off.

If your offers are open and flexible you can get lots of great trades with likeminded folks.
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Thanks for your thoughtful responses, everyone!
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wombat929 wrote:
Hi All,

On the recent episode of Talk About Board Games Podcast, Fred commented that it was difficult to do trades on BGG because many people expect to get a bargain and/or trade up, especially if they're the one being offered the game. I have seen this advice offered elsewhere as well.

Have you experienced this? Are you a perpetrator of it?

I am curious to know:
1 - Is there currently an avenue for people who want to do an Even Steven trade (two games that are relatively the same, moneywise) separate from the other mechanisms already in place?

2 - would there be interest in this sort of thing?

I was imagining a once-a-month renewed thread in which people posted games they were interested in even-steven trading. They would be responsible for marking their wishlist with their wants, and for indicating in their post what games they have on offer and how much those games are worth using an independent measure (like, say, an average of the last 5 BGG marketplace sales). Then, traders could look at their wants list and see what games they have that meet the Even Steven standard.

Is this too complicated? Am I responding to a problem that doesn't really exist? WHAT IS THE ANSWER?!?!


The answer is what it always has been. If you receive a trade offer, you are empowered and equipped with the ability to decide (by yourself) if a trade is good for you. If yes, then goto 20. If no, end.

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darthhugo wrote:
The answer is what is always has been. If you receive a trade offer, you are empowered and equipped with the ability to decide (by yourself) if a trade is good for you. If yes, then goto 20. If no, end.


I started a thread over in the trades forum about this -- it's been a good discussion. Your comment doesn't address the root problem, though. If Fred's premise holds true (that some people are interested in trades only to make money while others are really looking for a kind of "even swap," then it would be worthwhile to have some sorting function to divide those folks into groups.
 
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wombat929 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
The answer is what is always has been. If you receive a trade offer, you are empowered and equipped with the ability to decide (by yourself) if a trade is good for you. If yes, then goto 20. If no, end.


I started a thread over in the trades forum about this -- it's been a good discussion. Your comment doesn't address the root problem, though. If Fred's premise holds true (that some people are interested in trades only to make money while others are really looking for a kind of "even swap," then it would be worthwhile to have some sorting function to divide those folks into groups.


Not really. The final arbiter is the traders. No need for Nannies.
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wombat929 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
The answer is what is always has been. If you receive a trade offer, you are empowered and equipped with the ability to decide (by yourself) if a trade is good for you. If yes, then goto 20. If no, end.


I started a thread over in the trades forum about this -- it's been a good discussion. Your comment doesn't address the root problem, though. If Fred's premise holds true (that some people are interested in trades only to make money while others are really looking for a kind of "even swap," then it would be worthwhile to have some sorting function to divide those folks into groups.


With all due respect... My potential trade partner's motives, valuation, intent are irrelevant to me when considering a trade. The only important thing is if I'm personally satisfied with what I'm giving for what I'm getting.

What is your real motivation for this discussion?

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darthhugo wrote:
With all due respect... My potential trade partner's motives, valuation, intent are irrelevant to me when considering a trade. The only important thing is if I'm personally satisfied with what I'm giving for what I'm getting.


While personal satisfaction is what we're all looking for out of the trade. It is useful to be aware of and be able to identify the "Trade for Profit" players in the trading market (it doesn't take too long to figure it out), but I was pretty frustrated by the "premium" they expected to do business with me. Although they do fill a niche... I personally don't bother with them anymore.

While Math Trades are great, they are also very intimidating for outsiders...despite more user-friendly training materials.

I still prefer the 1-on-1 "geekmail-negotiated" trades...often trying to lump more than one game in to find a win-win balance. From my standpoint, I'm trying to get ~market value for my game, but mostly...I'm trying to get games that aren't getting played off the shelf in favor of a something that will get played.

Just keep at it...there are plenty of traders looking for Win-Win negotiations.

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TundraThunder wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
With all due respect... My potential trade partner's motives, valuation, intent are irrelevant to me when considering a trade. The only important thing is if I'm personally satisfied with what I'm giving for what I'm getting.


While personal satisfaction is what we're all looking for out of the trade. It is useful to be aware of and be able to identify the "Trade for Profit" players in the trading market (it doesn't take too long to figure it out), but I was pretty frustrated by the "premium" they expected to do business with me. Although they do fill a niche... I personally don't bother with them anymore.

While Math Trades are great, they are also very intimidating for outsiders...despite more user-friendly training materials.

I still prefer the 1-on-1 "geekmail-negotiated" trades...often trying to lump more than one game in to find a win-win balance. From my standpoint, I'm trying to get ~market value for my game, but mostly...I'm trying to get games that aren't getting played off the shelf in favor of a something that will get played.

Just keep at it...there are plenty of traders looking for Win-Win negotiations.



Why is it useful to ID those that trade for a profit? If someone that traded for a profit offered you the right trade, would you refuse it, because they trade for profit?

If I buy games that I sell for profit, will you not sell me a game that you know I will one day flip for a huge gain?


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darthhugo wrote:
TundraThunder wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
With all due respect... My potential trade partner's motives, valuation, intent are irrelevant to me when considering a trade. The only important thing is if I'm personally satisfied with what I'm giving for what I'm getting.


While personal satisfaction is what we're all looking for out of the trade. It is useful to be aware of and be able to identify the "Trade for Profit" players in the trading market (it doesn't take too long to figure it out), but I was pretty frustrated by the "premium" they expected to do business with me. Although they do fill a niche... I personally don't bother with them anymore.

While Math Trades are great, they are also very intimidating for outsiders...despite more user-friendly training materials.

I still prefer the 1-on-1 "geekmail-negotiated" trades...often trying to lump more than one game in to find a win-win balance. From my standpoint, I'm trying to get ~market value for my game, but mostly...I'm trying to get games that aren't getting played off the shelf in favor of a something that will get played.

Just keep at it...there are plenty of traders looking for Win-Win negotiations.



Why is it useful to ID those that trade for a profit? If someone that traded for a profit offered you the right trade, would you refuse it, because they trade for profit?

If I buy games that I sell for profit, will you not sell me a game that you know I will one day flip for a huge gain?

Absolutely not...a good deal is a good deal. The only reason to be aware of them (and I'm not saying that they need to be Tagged) is that it can be frustrating to offer an equal value trade to a "For Profit"-trader only to have them counter asking for 30-40% more.

As I said, "For Profit"-traders have their place....if someone wants to unload a bunch of games and upgrade to a few bigger better titles maybe they are willing to accept that premium to close the deal. I've found myself turned off by their counteroffers in the past. It's a personal decision...and for me not worth it. They typically don't initiate trades (from my experience) and I'm not planning to propose one with them. I'd rather have an auction. Sell a bunch of games that I'm struggling to trade and then re-invest the profits into the new game I desire.
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darthhugo wrote:
Why is it useful to ID those that trade for a profit? If someone that traded for a profit offered you the right trade, would you refuse it, because they trade for profit?

If I buy games that I sell for profit, will you not sell me a game that you know I will one day flip for a huge gain?


1 - nobody said anything about trying to ID those who trade for profit. This is about smoothing transactions by helping people set the boundaries beforehand.

2 - this stems from Fred's stories of trying to trade on BGG -- something I've read about from other places too.

If I'm looking to do an "even swap," and other people only want to trade if they're making a strong profit, then it's a waste of my time and theirs to discuss a trade. My thinking was that a forum might help with this oft-mentioned problem.

I don't see why you're so critical of this idea. No one said anything about "nannies," or impinging on your right to trade however you like.
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wombat929 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
Why is it useful to ID those that trade for a profit? If someone that traded for a profit offered you the right trade, would you refuse it, because they trade for profit?

If I buy games that I sell for profit, will you not sell me a game that you know I will one day flip for a huge gain?


1 - nobody said anything about trying to ID those who trade for profit. This is about smoothing transactions by helping people set the boundaries beforehand.

2 - this stems from Fred's stories of trying to trade on BGG -- something I've read about from other places too.

If I'm looking to do an "even swap," and other people only want to trade if they're making a strong profit, then it's a waste of my time and theirs to discuss a trade. My thinking was that a forum might help with this oft-mentioned problem.

I don't see why you're so critical of this idea. No one said anything about "nannies," or impinging on your right to trade however you like.

I'm confused exactly what you are trying to do then... if you don't want to "id" the folks you are talking about, are you just trying to use this thread then to id folks who are trying to make even/fair trades then?
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JeffyJeff wrote:

I'm confused exactly what you are trying to do then... if you don't want to "id" the folks you are talking about, are you just trying to use this thread then to id folks who are trying to make even/fair trades then?


I guess -- my thought was that people who wanted to do even steven trades could post in the thread, and this would be a filtering tool for others who wanted to do the same thing.

But honestly, I just wanted to see what people thought of the idea. It would likely be too difficult to maintain.
 
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wombat929 wrote:
But honestly, I just wanted to see what people thought of the idea. It would likely be too difficult to maintain.


More to the point it would be too difficult to enforce the core criteria even amongst those who like the idea in theory.

It would very quickly devolve into a public debate over the valuation of every single game that someone tries to trade that someone else feels was not truly "even steven" for the reasons I outlined above.

This wouldn't necessarily be a terrible thing as some would quickly get an education about how many others have much different ideas about valuation but there would almost certainly wind up being plenty of ruffled feathers, and bruised feelings.

I've seen folks get super defensive on the subject which is why I noted above that I don't recommend even getting into a debate when the perceived value gap is sizable. It rarely ends well.

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If you're not dealing with an out of print or out of stock item, it's pretty easy to agree on valuation if you use a site like Minature Market or Coolstuff as your referent point (or the KS pledge value, depending on the item).

As far as trades have gone for me, I've had the entire range of experiences. I've had people send me trade requests offering a $20 game for $100+ in games in return. I've also made a few trades where the person was willing to trade down and I got a "deal." However, most of my trades have used an online retailer as our arbiter and have, consequently, been pretty even. Although, to the OP's point, I have interacted with more than a handful of people who are certainly not interested in "even" trades and that can be annoying/frustrating.
 
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SuperMike3288 wrote:
If you're not dealing with an out of print or out of stock item, it's pretty easy to agree on valuation if you use a site like Minature Market or Coolstuff as your referent point (or the KS pledge value, depending on the item).

Well...I tend to look at used market prices rather than new. Some used games cost about as much as new, while others fetch 50% or less of MSRP on the used market.

But that's a nitpick. It seemed like the original idea was not for some committee to identify and then police participants. It was more like a voluntary self-identification and self-policing. Would a "for profit" trader really choose to join an "even steven traders" group? And perhaps some traders who discount for shipping and really want to trade up would join, but probably not many.

Perhaps create a guild?
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NuMystic wrote:
wombat929 wrote:
But honestly, I just wanted to see what people thought of the idea. It would likely be too difficult to maintain.


More to the point it would be too difficult to enforce the core criteria even amongst those who like the idea in theory.

It would very quickly devolve into a public debate over the valuation of every single game that someone tries to trade that someone else feels was not truly "even steven" for the reasons I outlined above.

This wouldn't necessarily be a terrible thing as some would quickly get an education about how many others have much different ideas about valuation but there would almost certainly wind up being plenty of ruffled feathers, and bruised feelings.

I've seen folks get super defensive on the subject which is why I noted above that I don't recommend even getting into a debate when the perceived value gap is sizable. It rarely ends well.



I'm offended that you even commented about me being offended.

INSERT SMILEYFACE EMOTICON HERE


And this Fred dude appears to live a life fraught with unnecessary drama. I can envision his daily interactions must involve extortion or forced humiliation.

Fred @ Starbucks: "Here sir, your coffee. But first pony up another $20 or I'll dump it down the drain."

Fred reluctantly pulls another $20 and shrugs, paying off the clerk.


Why does Fred get caught up in trade discussions where they are clearly playing him? Why doesn't Fred just walk the fuck away from something that isn't right for him? Do they hold something hostage? Does this happen to Fred all the time? I feel for Fred.

 
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wombat929 wrote:
darthhugo wrote:
Why is it useful to ID those that trade for a profit? If someone that traded for a profit offered you the right trade, would you refuse it, because they trade for profit?

If I buy games that I sell for profit, will you not sell me a game that you know I will one day flip for a huge gain?


1 - nobody said anything about trying to ID those who trade for profit. This is about smoothing transactions by helping people set the boundaries beforehand.

2 - this stems from Fred's stories of trying to trade on BGG -- something I've read about from other places too.

If I'm looking to do an "even swap," and other people only want to trade if they're making a strong profit, then it's a waste of my time and theirs to discuss a trade. My thinking was that a forum might help with this oft-mentioned problem.

I don't see why you're so critical of this idea. No one said anything about "nannies," or impinging on your right to trade however you like.


I pretty much sum this up as a solution searching for a problem, as the "problem" you mention appears completely avoidable.... as in really easily avoidable.

Here is a simple script:

Trader: Hey, how about this for that?

You: OK, that sounds fair.

Trader: Hey, maybe if you would add something else, we can make this happen?!?

You: No, I'll stick with what we originally agreed to.

Trader: No, I want the other thing, too.

You: No, thanks. I think this discussion is over.

If Trader attempts to contact you for another trade in the future... your response is.....

Nothing.




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darthhugo wrote:
I pretty much sum this up as a solution searching for a problem, as the "problem" you mention appears completely avoidable.... as in really easily avoidable.


Fred is a co-host of the Talk About Board Games podcast, and he was talking about why he doesn't trade more on BGG. It isn't that he's looking for a problem -- this is a problem he consistently has.

If the interaction you're describing just happened once or occasionally, that would be fine. But apparently it's a consistent problem with BGG trading forums, which is why I brought this up.

But if I've self-identified as an even-steven trader, perhaps the other trader wouldn't even bother, and we've both saved time and annoyance. It takes time and energy to consider and respond to requests.
 
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wombat929 wrote:
It takes time and energy to consider and respond to requests.


Not when there's a really huge value gap and you're someone that is only looking for parity. That takes all of three seconds.

"Appreciate the offer but I'm going to pass, good luck in your search!" <SEND>

The only thing that takes real time and and energy is when an offer is close enough to what you want to actually have to consider it!
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