Greg Low
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Mansfield
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As mentioned in some other threads, the sub rules are "light". While many of the rules brevity fits, it seems to me that subs could have easily been beefed up without too much complexity.

Go Deep - It would be interesting if subs could become holes in the water for a turn and just try to "ride things out". No movement, no shooting, just a pass from a hot situation for a turn. It's a thought.

Surface running - I can see subs getting to move at speed 2 if running on the surface. Subs aren't that slow when on the surface. The obvious downside would be that normal fire, rather than ASW, would hit them. It would make sense if they had a deck gun, since the anti armor attack would be more dangerous to transport's low armor than the torpedoes.

(Relatedly, I'll be interested to see if the U-boat type XXI ever gets a model and gets speed 2 or just higher armor representing its shark-like qualities).

I see some interesting possibilities. I can understand why these options weren't included. They shouldn't be that useful during fleet engagements, but it still provides options to consider.

-Greg
 
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Pierre Philippe Goyer
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Verdun Montreal
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Definitly, I agree with you.
With many games under our belt, our group is trying hard just to fit a few simple rules to cover the Subs without changing any formulas or numbers.
But we don't have all the type of Subs yet and maybe our house rules would not be in according with all the available Subs. But its pending and we will post them shorthy.

Owll
 
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Pierre Philippe Goyer
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The other thing regarding the Subs that annoys us is that no matter how far or how deep they are on the map from a carrier or an airport on an island, any air unit with ASW can attack it without any risk or lost of time. (by just plainly not spotting it)

Keeping it simple,
We are still playtesting but we are heading in categorizing Air units.
1- Land based Air units with enough fuel to search and destroy.
2- Carrier Air Units(with their Carrier) with short range.
3- All Other Air units with spotting requirements.

Different spotting requirements limiting attacks.
Playtesting...

Owll

 
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Joe Donnelly
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After playing a few more games, I've become more tolerant of the ASW situation. The aircraft don't hit very often, and committing them to chancy ASW rolls is a reasonable abstraction for search operations as well, I would say.

I am going to try a house rule that any "doubles" rolled in ASW attacks drive the submarine down, so that it can't attack during the torpedo phase of that turn.
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Sunray11 wrote:
I am going to try a house rule that any "doubles" rolled in ASW attacks drive the submarine down, so that it can't attack during the torpedo phase of that turn.
Joe, I like the simplicity of your suggested house rule. It would make the DD's and DE's more effective/useful. Although they did not sink the sub, they would at least keep it down and prevent it from attacking the fleet. After all, DD's and DE's are the fleet's anti-sub screening force.

I also like Barry Kendall's (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/157791) suggestion from Seastrike, about using a "dummy" counter/unit for each sub, so your opponent is not 100% certain he's attacking the real thing.
 
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Barry Kendall
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Since playing with the subs for the first time I've been thinking about these issues too. . . speed is definitely off; even on the surface subs are not anything like as fast as a destroyer; even keeping up with a Casablanca-class CVE would require calm seas, an engine in perfect condition and about two knots more than a sub could manage.

I'm thinking that a sub should only move one space, period--and that's being generous. One 5,000-yard square is 2.5 nautical miles across. With ten-minute turns, that means that in six turns (one hour) any vessel moving six squares is cruising at 15 knots. That is at or near top surface speed for a fleet sub.

I'm also thinking that a sub should not be able to move at all on the turn it fires torpedoes, unless it is declared to be "surfaced." Rationale: calculating a torpedo firing solution took time and usually at least two periscope views of the target. Coming into firing range also took stealth, unless the attack was made at night. There's periscope sighting, entering targeting data, lining up for the shot, opening the outer doors and launching. There's ten minutes right there--one turn.

I'm also thinking that the first "success" rolled against a submerged sub should not be a hull hit, but an "abort" or "emergency dive" result, unless the success is a "6." This would compel the sub to "crash dive" or at least to change course and break off its immediate tactical plans.

I plan to try this, keeping the sub in the same space but using a marker to indicate the sub has, to use someone else's term, "gone deep." A sub that has "gone deep" will be permitted to move one space per turn, but the sub will not be able to make another attack until it has spent a turn "coming to periscope depth" in whichever square it occupies in the turn it changes depth.

In other words, a sub spends a turn coming shallow just as it would spend a turn moving.

There is a very easy way to execute hidden sub movement. Simply draw on a piece of paper or cardstock a brick-pattern grid of squares featuring one center square and the six surrounding squares. Put an "x" in the center square; this marks your sub's current location. Using a distinctive marker for each sub you have in the game, place that marker in whichever of the six surrounding squares you want the sub to move into. This way, the sub on the board only marks its location last turn. I'm "borrowing" this idea from an old Larry Harris game on guerrilla warfare in a third-world country; he used this system for hidden guerrilla movement.

For an even better sub game, of course, instead of drawing a seven-square grid, reproduce the whole board on paper and move hidden all the time until a sub fires torpedoes. Someone with better graphic skills than I have will probably do this before long on one of these boards; as a computer dummy I still rely a lot on paper and ruler.

By the way, I just read something astonishing about British Torpex torpedo warhead compound. It compared the explosive power of a Torpex-tipped torpedo to that of a Long Lance!!!!!

When I get a chance I'll be posting more info on data I'm finding about ranges, shell weights, and rate of fire. I can confirm now from this source that the Fletcher DD is woefully underrated in gunpower; the U.S. 5"/38 DP gun's ROF was at least twice that of any other 4.7, 5 or bigger gun on any nation's warships.
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