Dan Fielding
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"When a player makes use of this Special Action, his opponent receives the Starting Player Marker for the subsequent Half Year.

If none of the 8 Workers makes use of the Special Action, the Starting Player Marker changes hands automatically at the end of the Half Year."

In the English language, there is no difference in effect between these two conditions.

I think the translater does not quite understand the meaning of the word "subsequent" as it is used in that sentence structure.

I think they meant to say that the marker is exchanged "immediately?" This would give the other player the starting marker for the "remainder of" this season, AND the next season.
 
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Dave Moser
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Gronak wrote:
"When a player makes use of this Special Action, his opponent receives the Starting Player Marker for the subsequent Half Year.

If none of the 8 Workers makes use of the Special Action, the Starting Player Marker changes hands automatically at the end of the Half Year."

In the English language, there is no difference in effect between these two conditions.

I think the translater does not quite understand the meaning of the word "subsequent" as it is used in that sentence structure.

I think they meant to say that the marker is exchanged "immediately?" This would give the other player the starting marker for the "remainder of" this season, AND the next season.


Sorry, but I think it makes perfect sense as written. (Subsequent means following; what is the misunderstanding?) There is nothing in the rules to indicate that turn order ever changes during the course of a season, so the wording in your last paragraph would not conform to the rules as I understand them.

It's really very simple; ownership of the Starting Player Marker (SPM) determines the starting player at the time each round begins. Any time one player uses a Special Action, his opponent receives (or retains) the SPM and will therefore be the starting player during the following season. If the season ends and no one has used the Special Action, the SPM is simply exchanged before starting the next season.

-djm
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Dan Fielding
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>(Subsequent means following; what is the misunderstanding?)
>

Yes, the two conditions yield exactly the same result -- the Starting Player changes between seasons.

It is a distinction without a difference; hence I believe the authors must have intended some sort of difference.

The rule could have been stated as:
1) Either player may place 1 worker on the out-of-season track.
2) Exchange the Starting Player token between seasons, unless the second player performed 1) above.

As written, the starting player can use an out of season action without penalty.

But the second player is penalized for using an out of season action: he will remain the second player in the next season.

The initial second player is penalized when he makes himself the starting player in the first season:
a) he has to be the second player for two seasons in a row, and
b) he cannot use a Special Action in the second season. But the other player CAN use a special action in the second season.

That adds up to "3 plays" of disadvantage (1 being the 2nd player, 2 not being able to play out-of-season, 3 the other player CAN play out-of-season).

Being the starting player is already an advantage; he can always choose from the full range of actions in his first play.


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Karl Bunyan
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Gronak wrote:
>(Subsequent means following; what is the misunderstanding?)
>

Yes, the two conditions yield exactly the same result -- the Starting Player changes between seasons.

It is a distinction without a difference; hence I believe the authors must have intended some sort of difference.

The rule could have been stated as:
1) Either player may place 1 worker on the out-of-season track.
2) Exchange the Starting Player token between seasons, unless the second player performed 1) above.

As written, the starting player can use an out of season action without penalty.

But the second player is penalized for using an out of season action: he will remain the second player in the next season.

The initial second player is penalized when he makes himself the starting player in the first season:
a) he has to be the second player for two seasons in a row, and
b) he cannot use a Special Action in the second season. But the other player CAN use a special action in the second season.

That adds up to "3 plays" of disadvantage (1 being the 2nd player, 2 not being able to play out-of-season, 3 the other player CAN play out-of-season).

Being the starting player is already an advantage; he can always choose from the full range of actions in his first play.

You're right - that's much clearer shake
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I have played this game many many times and to be honest have never worried so much about being the 1st player. Also the rules which I have read in German and English are completely clear.
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Dan Fielding
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Yes, the rule is clear -- it clearly disadvantages the second player !
 
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Gronak wrote:
>
The initial second player is penalized when he makes himself the starting player in the first season:
a) he has to be the second player for two seasons in a row, and
b) he cannot use a Special Action in the second season. But the other player CAN use a special action in the second season.



This is where you lost me. Why can't the second player use a Special Action in season 2?

In any season, either player can take a Special Action. True, this always gives an advantage to the current first player, as he is already slated to be the second player next season and therefore gives up little to take a Special Action. On the other hand, if you're not currently the starting player, it is always possible to guarantee that you're the starting player in the next season, simply by not taking any special actions.

-djm
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Chris Wilczewski
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You may not like the implications of the rule, but the language is quite clear to me. Even when the marker changes hands, the workers are already stacked in turn order. If they meant what you think, there would be rules to re stack them.

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Murr Rockstroh
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From another thread, here is how we keep track of who the start player is in the next round, by using both start player markers.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/19742666#19742666
 
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Dan Fielding
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dmoser22 wrote:
Gronak wrote:
>
The initial second player is penalized when he makes himself the starting player in the first season:
a) he has to be the second player for two seasons in a row, and
b) he cannot use a Special Action in the second season. But the other player CAN use a special action in the second season.



This is where you lost me. Why can't the second player use a Special Action in season 2?

-djm


Because if he does, he won't become the Start Player in the next season -- which is his object.
 
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Dave Moser
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Gronak wrote:
dmoser22 wrote:
Gronak wrote:
>
The initial second player is penalized when he makes himself the starting player in the first season:
a) he has to be the second player for two seasons in a row, and
b) he cannot use a Special Action in the second season. But the other player CAN use a special action in the second season.



This is where you lost me. Why can't the second player use a Special Action in season 2?

-djm


Because if he does, he won't become the Start Player in the next season -- which is his object.




Yes, there's a cost. That's different than not being able to do it.

Sorry to beat this to death, but let's get back to the OP:

Gronak wrote:
"When a player makes use of this Special Action, his opponent receives the Starting Player Marker for the subsequent Half Year.

If none of the 8 Workers makes use of the Special Action, the Starting Player Marker changes hands automatically at the end of the Half Year."

In the English language, there is no difference in effect between these two conditions.

I think the translater does not quite understand the meaning of the word "subsequent" as it is used in that sentence structure.

I think they meant to say that the marker is exchanged "immediately?" This would give the other player the starting marker for the "remainder of" this season, AND the next season.


As I said earlier, I think it's stated/translated just fine, and I'm trying to understand why you think that "subsequent" is not the appropriate word. Your last sentence makes me think that you don't really understand how the game is supposed to work, because taking a Special Action doesn't do anything "for the remainder of the season".

Maybe it would help if you could tell us how you think the rule should be stated.

 
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When I first read the rule I thought something similar to OP. Having played Agricola and Caverna before Arle I was waiting for a First Player "thing" with a little more bite.

But the rules as written do make sense as-is.

Maybe another way to think of it is from the perspective of the current First Player: you get the opportunity to use the Special Action if you need it and you're not gonna be penalized for it because you're gonna already be Second Player next round.

The "bite" (as I think we all agree in this thread) would be: if you're Second Player and you REALLY want something for your master plan, you'll get penalized by being Second Player again.
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Dave Moser
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USP45 wrote:
Maybe another way to think of it is from the perspective of the current First Player: you get the opportunity to use the Special Action if you need it and you're not gonna be penalized for it because you're gonna already be Second Player next round.


There is in fact a penalty, though relatively minor, for taking the Special Action when you're the first player, which is:

Each time you resist taking a Special Action, there is a chance that the 2nd player will be tempted to do so himself, making you 1st player again in the following season. If you take a Special Action, that is no longer possible.
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Dan Fielding
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If both players are "conservative" and never take a Special Action, then Player A will always be first in Spring, and the Player B always in Fall. That assymetry has an odour about it.

Changing the order is VERY costly for Player B. It has NO cost for Player A -- in fact an advantage, when he does a Special Action.

If Player B takes a Special Action, then Player A can still do so at no cost.

There is the "Imitate" action (another example of a weird choice of words...) so neither player is locked out of a vital action -- but 2 Food is a costly penalty.
 
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Gronak wrote:
If both players are "conservative" and never take a Special Action, then Player A will always be first in Spring, and the Player B always in Fall. That assymetry has an odour about it.

Changing the order is VERY costly for Player B. It has NO cost for Player A -- in fact an advantage, when he does a Special Action.

If Player B takes a Special Action, then Player A can still do so at no cost.

There is the "Imitate" action (another example of a weird choice of words...) so neither player is locked out of a vital action -- but 2 Food is a costly penalty.


But it is not, have you actually played the game? This is one Uwe where food is not in anyway restricted. Most games end with both players having 30 food.

 
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Dan Fielding
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wi1ky wrote:

>2 Food is a costly penalty.
>

But it is not, have you actually played the game? This is one Uwe where food is not in anyway restricted. Most games end with both players having 30 food.


played once so far. Spent excess food on buildings.

Seems better to get grain, since usually you can substitute it for food. Only take enough food to pay for purchases where it is required.
 
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Dave Moser
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Gronak wrote:
If both players are "conservative" and never take a Special Action, then Player A will always be first in Spring, and the Player B always in Fall. That assymetry has an odour about it.

Changing the order is VERY costly for Player B. It has NO cost for Player A -- in fact an advantage, when he does a Special Action.

I still don't understand what you're trying to say, but I suspect your interpretation of the rules is wrong.

Why would you say that taking a Special Action has no cost for player A? For example, in season 2, A is the 2nd player. If he takes a Special Action, he will be 2nd player in the 3rd season as well. If that is the only SA taken during the game, A will have been first in 4 seasons, and B first in 5. That sounds like a cost to me.

Gronak wrote:
If Player B takes a Special Action, then Player A can still do so at no cost.

You do know that only one SA can be taken per season, right?

Any time you are the starting player, taking the SA has a cost: you give up the SPM for the next season.

If your point in all of this is that player A has the advantage of starting 5 seasons vs 4 if no SAs are taken, then yes, you're correct. But it seems like you're trying to blow that advantage up into something much more than it is.

SAs will happen in most games; player A's first player advantage is reversed as soon as he takes one. It's actually a really nice mechanism that balances the benefit of going first in a given season with the flexibility afforded by being able to use a Special Action.

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The OP clearly has lots of time on his hands as this is the second post in which he has criticised the rule book and the translator for FoA. Just play the game it is brilliant and the rules do make sense.

Also, please accept that you are not the final arbiter of the English language - just chill man.
 
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David Tolin
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Gronak wrote:
"When a player makes use of this Special Action, his opponent receives the Starting Player Marker for the subsequent Half Year.

If none of the 8 Workers makes use of the Special Action, the Starting Player Marker changes hands automatically at the end of the Half Year."

In the English language, there is no difference in effect between these two conditions.


As others have pointed out, there is a difference in effect between these two conditions because either player can take the Special Action. If the player without the SPM takes it, the SPM does not change hands automatically at the end of the Half Year and remains with the player who currently has the SPM. This is a different effect than what would have happened if no one took the Special Action.

The rule has a clear purpose and is correctly phrased.
 
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