Recommend
7 
 Thumb up
 Hide
56 Posts
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Star Trek: Frontiers» Forums » General

Subject: Start Trek vs Mage knight rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Vilhjálmur Langfeldt
msg tools
what I have seen and haired about the difference i don't know 100% sure if this is true or not just what i have observe.

1. 4 rounds instead of 6 for full game
2. no day and night
3. movement cost is never more then 4
4. there are no artifacts
5. enemy's have diplomacy face then attack face
6. there are 8 encounter types instead of 7
7. cant see that enemy's having any special ability's like fire/ice, brutal, swift, and so on.. I am hoping that I'm wrong about that one.

have you guys seen the rules or know if some of this is not true?
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Christian van Someren
Netherlands
Groningen
Groningen
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Regarding number 8, there are definitely different attack types, such as phasers, photon torpedoes, etc. I imagine this corresponds with fire/ice abilities.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thorondor The Lord of the Eagles
United States
Minnesota
flag msg tools
-two fewer terrain types (none more than 4 like you said)
-only 3 crystal colors instead of 4
-one new "mystery" die
-there might no longer be siege attack (not sure on this)
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TechRaptor Travis
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
azrealone wrote:
what I have seen and haired about the difference i don't know 100% sure if this is true or not just what i have observe.

1. 4 rounds instead of 6 for full game
2. no day and night
3. movement cost is never more then 4
4. there are no artifacts
5. enemy's have diplomacy face then attack face
6. there are 8 encounter types instead of 7
7. cant see that enemy's having any special ability's like fire/ice, brutal, swift, and so on.. I am hoping that I'm wrong about that one.

have you guys seen the rules or know if some of this is not true?


1. There are still 6 rounds in Conquest.
2. Correct
3. Correct
4. Correct, although they aren't really 'needed' as combat is quite a bit more forgiving, and multi-token combat is usually broken into multiple smaller combats. Example: If you are facing space enemies AND planet enemies, they are handled separately.
5. Some enemies can be 'defeated' with Diplomacy before combat, but not all.
6. Correct
7. Enemies have special attacks and defenses that are almost exactly analogous with Mage Knight, and they have special abilities that are very similar to poison, brutal etc.
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TechRaptor Travis
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
danielwhitford09 wrote:
-two fewer terrain types (none more than 4 like you said)
-only 3 crystal colors instead of 4
-one new "mystery" die
-there might no longer be siege attack (not sure on this)


Crystals: Correct.
Mystery: Correct.
Siege: Correct-ish. Combat works like this:

If an enemy can be handled with Diplomacy, this happens first.

Next is Long Range Attack.

Then the enemy attacks you, and you block (you no longer have to block ALL of an attack. Partial blocks work, and you only take damage from the remainder (i.e. if you get attacked for 5 and block 3, you only take 2).

Finally, the normal attack phase.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alexander
Germany
Duisburg
NRW
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NerdyRaptor wrote:
danielwhitford09 wrote:
-two fewer terrain types (none more than 4 like you said)
-only 3 crystal colors instead of 4
-one new "mystery" die
-there might no longer be siege attack (not sure on this)


Crystals: Correct.
Mystery: Correct.
Siege: Correct-ish. Combat works like this:

If an enemy can be handled with Diplomacy, this happens first.

Next is Long Range Attack.

Then the enemy attacks you, and you block (you no longer have to block ALL of an attack. Partial blocks work, and you only take damage from the remainder (i.e. if you get attacked for 5 and block 3, you only take 2).

Finally, the normal attack phase.


Partial blocks sound like a meaningful change to me.

another question:
In MK there are fortified enemies, which means there is a difference between siege and ranged attacks.
Does that exist in Frontiers as well?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TechRaptor Travis
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
LX1986 wrote:


Partial blocks sound like a meaningful change to me.

another question:
In MK there are fortified enemies, which means there is a difference between siege and ranged attacks.
Does that exist in Frontiers as well?


Combat is WAY more forgiving in ST:F over Mage Knight. I feel like I can play 'sloppy' and still succeed in ST:F, although that's only 'sloppy' when compared to how I play when I'm really 'on' in MK. Combat feels easier in ST:F than in MK.

There is no Siege vs Ranged in ST:F. There are only Long Ranged attacks and normal Attacks (although, of course, there are different types of attack, such as Proton Torpedoes etc. read: Fire/Cold.)

The closest analog to Siege attack is the Diplomacy phase on enemies that can be defeated via Diplomacy. This happens before any Long Ranged attacks, so it's akin to Siege that way, but there are no enemies that are 'immune' to the Long Ranged attack phase like Fortified enemies in MK. Defeating an enemy via Diplomacy is always optional as well, so even though it's first, like Siege, it's very different.

All in all, combat is more streamlined and easier to explain to new players, as well as more naturally intuitive, especially with the changes to block.

Edit: Clarity
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Mirror
United States
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
NerdyRaptor wrote:
LX1986 wrote:


Partial blocks sound like a meaningful change to me.

another question:
In MK there are fortified enemies, which means there is a difference between siege and ranged attacks.
Does that exist in Frontiers as well?


Combat is WAY more forgiving in ST:F over Mage Knight. I feel like I can play 'sloppy' and still succeed in ST:F, although that's only 'sloppy' when compared to how I play when I'm really 'on' in MK. Combat feels easier in ST:F than in MK.

There is no Siege vs Ranged in ST:F. There are only Long Ranged attacks and normal Attacks (although, of course, there are different types of attack, such as Proton Torpedoes etc. read: Fire/Cold.)

The closest analog to Siege attack is the Diplomacy phase on enemies that can be defeated via Diplomacy. This happens before any Long Ranged attacks, so it's akin to Siege that way, but there are no enemies that are 'immune' to the Long Ranged attack phase like Fortified enemies in MK. Defeating an enemy via Diplomacy is always optional as well, so even though it's first, like Siege, it's very different.

All in all, combat is more streamlined and easier to explain to new players, as well as more naturally intuitive, especially with the changes to block.

Edit: Clarity


Great feedback! How are your feelings on a mechanical/gameplay level (ignoring theme since I love MK though hate the theme) how the two compare in terms of the base game?

Do you enjoy the streamlining? The privileged diplomacy track/rating etc? Could you see replacing MK w/ ST:F? Any other thoughts?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TechRaptor Travis
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mirror33 wrote:


Great feedback! How are your feelings on a mechanical/gameplay level (ignoring theme since I love MK though hate the theme) how the two compare in terms of the base game?

Do you enjoy the streamlining? The privileged diplomacy track/rating etc? Could you see replacing MK w/ ST:F? Any other thoughts?


Thanks!

If you love the mechanics of MK but hate the theme then ST:F is exactly for you, although there are a few mechanical/thematic disconnects that don't quite gel with the Star Trek theme. For instance, it feels just fine to be a total jerk in MK, because it's generic fantasy. It's your story, so play it how you want. Burn that Monastery to the ground!

It feels off to play ST:F as Picard that way, because he is an established character with established morality and behavior patterns. Picard laying waste to a whole planet? Ummmm. Doesn't quite compute. That said, it feels just fine to do it as a Klingon who is out to gain glory for themselves.

Mechanically they are VERY similar, and ST:F still gives that same sense of satisfaction when you puzzle out exactly the solution to the problems presented to you.

I still prefer MK, but only just. ST:F is an awesome game. I mentioned it in another thread, but my full review will be hitting next Tuesday on TechRaptor, but I'm happy to answer more questions in the mean time (or after.)
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Mirror
United States
New York
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmb
NerdyRaptor wrote:

Thanks!

If you love the mechanics of MK but hate the theme then ST:F is exactly for you, although there are a few mechanical/thematic disconnects that don't quite gel with the Star Trek theme. For instance, it feels just fine to be a total jerk in MK, because it's generic fantasy. It's your story, so play it how you want. Burn that Monastery to the ground!

It feels off to play ST:F as Picard that way, because he is an established character with established morality and behavior patterns. Picard laying waste to a whole planet? Ummmm. Doesn't quite compute. That said, it feels just fine to do it as a Klingon who is out to gain glory for themselves.

Mechanically they are VERY similar, and ST:F still gives that same sense of satisfaction when you puzzle out exactly the solution to the problems presented to you.

I still prefer MK, but only just. ST:F is an awesome game. I mentioned it in another thread, but my full review will be hitting next Tuesday on TechRaptor, but I'm happy to answer more questions in the mean time (or after.)


Thanks again for the reply!

I'm a big ST:TNG/DS9/(and even)Voyager fan, it's my era, but I don't really get upset about thematic incongruities with regards to boardgames seeing as the game's mechanics and resulting immersive qualities take precedence over theme for me, especially with MK in particular which is the easiest and fastest way for me to experience 4 hours fly by. Mostly, I'm curious as to how the new mechanics/changes enhance or detract from gameplay in your subjective experience.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathanael Robinson
United States
Cary
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
If you play as Sisko, Martok, or Lursa and Behtor, go ahead: lay waste to the planet.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TechRaptor Travis
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
mirror33 wrote:

Thanks again for the reply!

I'm a big ST:TNG/DS9/(and even)Voyager fan, it's my era, but I don't really get upset about thematic incongruities with regards to boardgames seeing as the game's mechanics and resulting immersive qualities take precedence over theme for me, especially with MK in particular which is the easiest and fastest way for me to experience 4 hours fly by. Mostly, I'm curious as to how the new mechanics/changes enhance or detract from gameplay in your subjective experience.


To address the streamlining and changes directly and whether they enhance or detract from the game overall...the answer is 'yes' to both.

To be more precise, ST:F still feels like MK, although it feels slightly easier thanks to the combat changes, which, for me, takes a bit away from it. At the same time, the combat is more intuitive, which is, objectively, a step in the right direction, especially for new/more casual players.

Artifacts are gone completely, which I miss, but not as much as I thought I would because, again, combat is easier. Those big bomb effects from Artifacts aren't a necessary evil this time around.

When you encounter a Borg Cube, it will often come with a mix of space and terrestrial opponents, which have to be handled in different phases. First, you battle the space enemies, then, once that is done, you send an away team to face off against those on planets. It makes combat against multiple enemies easier to parse, as you can focus on X then Y, which cuts a lot of the tension that MK has, which is one thing I like about MK better. At the same time, you need to decide whether to dedicate your crew to helping out in space, or holding them back to be part of the Away Team, which can be a fun conundrum, although, on default settings, it's usually an easy choice.

The big changes mechanically in ST:F are Away Missions (dealing with planetary foes), and those tweaks to combat. The Away Missions give those dead weight Diplomacy cards an extra use, as planetary foes can be dealt with peacefully.

So, positive: New, thematically appropriate Away Mission mechanic that expands diplomatic options and also makes you consider more carefully how to use recruited units/crew. Because of this mechanic, wounds for crew and captain are separate from damage to ship, which makes healing/repairing a bit more cumbersome.

Streamlined, more intuitive combat.

Negative: Combat is easier, and thus loses tension.

Thematic disconnect for some actions with some player characters for me personally.

This game IS Mage Knight(which I rate 10/10) in space, and I highly recommend both. If I had to choose to keep one (I am keeping both btw) I personally would keep Mage Knight, but if I could only keep ST:F (9.5/10), I would still be happy with it. This is a situation in which there is no wrong answer. Due to the thematic changes, and those small changes to gameplay, it feels familiar enough to dive right in to, but different and fresh enough to avoid feeling like an exact carbon copy (although it's close).

If you love the MK mechanics, but like this theme better, then ST:F is a must buy. If you haven't played either system, ST:F is a perfect introduction.

If you have everything MK (including expansions) and are a bit bored with it, I don't know if there is enough new here for you, and if you've played it that much, ST:F will definitely feel like easy mode.

16 
 Thumb up
0.25
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TechRaptor Travis
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Bad Thoughts wrote:
If you play as Sisko, Martok, or Lursa and Behtor, go ahead: lay waste to the planet.


I love being a space-bastard, so I go with Martok or the sisters.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TechRaptor Travis
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
John Blank wrote:

I agree it would be strange for Picard to lay waste to a planet, but it would not be out of the ordinary for a Star Fleet Captain or Admiral to lay waste to a planet, since that kind of thing has happened many times in the TV shows and movies. I do like the ability to have Picard be evil, though. And ultimately it's up to the players choice. People can play captains to type or have them go against type.


True!

For me, it doesn't work well in my brain, but what I see as a negative can easily be turned into a positive for someone who always wondered what it would be like if Picard used his power for selfish gain.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Rat
United States
New York
flag msg tools
NerdyRaptor wrote:
mirror33 wrote:


Great feedback! How are your feelings on a mechanical/gameplay level (ignoring theme since I love MK though hate the theme) how the two compare in terms of the base game?

Do you enjoy the streamlining? The privileged diplomacy track/rating etc? Could you see replacing MK w/ ST:F? Any other thoughts?


Thanks!

If you love the mechanics of MK but hate the theme then ST:F is exactly for you, although there are a few mechanical/thematic disconnects that don't quite gel with the Star Trek theme. For instance, it feels just fine to be a total jerk in MK, because it's generic fantasy. It's your story, so play it how you want. Burn that Monastery to the ground!

It feels off to play ST:F as Picard that way, because he is an established character with established morality and behavior patterns. Picard laying waste to a whole planet? Ummmm. Doesn't quite compute. That said, it feels just fine to do it as a Klingon who is out to gain glory for themselves.

Mechanically they are VERY similar, and ST:F still gives that same sense of satisfaction when you puzzle out exactly the solution to the problems presented to you.

I still prefer MK, but only just. ST:F is an awesome game. I mentioned it in another thread, but my full review will be hitting next Tuesday on TechRaptor, but I'm happy to answer more questions in the mean time (or after.)


Is it possible to win a game by playing without doing "evil" things? or is blowing up planets and being a space asshole NEEDED?

I wonder if you can win via diplomacy only, making the game just incredibly harder...

Do you think its possible?

Also, when is it coming out!>>!!> i preordered!
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nathanael Robinson
United States
Cary
North Carolina
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmb
NerdyRaptor wrote:
Bad Thoughts wrote:
If you play as Sisko, Martok, or Lursa and Behtor, go ahead: lay waste to the planet.


I love being a space-bastard, so I go with Martok or the sisters.

I don't know if I'm sold on this game, but if I do, I'm taking Captain Badass Captain Shaft Captain Sisko and going "on a five year mission to KICK ASS."
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Edmonds
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Do you need more card ideas for the D&D Adventure System games?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Quote:
It feels off to play ST:F as Picard that way, because he is an established character with established morality and behavior patterns. Picard laying waste to a whole planet? Ummmm. Doesn't quite compute. That said, it feels just fine to do it as a Klingon who is out to gain glory for themselves.


Mirror, Mirror anyone?

Here's a potential storyline for you:

Captain's Log, Stardate 41328.2

The Enterprise-D is studying a pulsar in the Scalzi sector. Routine science experiments triggered an unexpected increase in pulsar activity. During several pulse events, the crew reported having visions of the Enterprise-D engaging in missions that never occurred. Slight variations in the ship's layout and uniform design have led Mr. Data to posulate that that we may be getting glimpses of alternate realities with vastly different versions of ourselves.

While the effect is interesting from a scientific perspective, Mr. Data reported a logarithmic increase in graviton emissions from the pulsar. Left unchecked, these emissions could eventually tear apart the sector and pose a hazard to navigation.

I'm afraid the crew of the Enterprise will have to endure these visions while we determine how to best curb the graviton emissions. I find some of the visions personally disturbing as my alter-ego's behavior in some realities is quite barbaric.


5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Neil Edmonds
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
badge
Do you need more card ideas for the D&D Adventure System games?
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
You may feel free to invent your own particle at the end of the game to solve the dilemma:

"Thanks to the efforts of Mr. LaForge and Mr. Data, the Enterprise's emitter array was reconfigured to transmit a focused stream of _________ particles to return the pulsar to normal. I fear it will be some time though before the crew's sleep returns to normal with the visions they witnessed."

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
TechRaptor Travis
United States
Washington
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NICKtheRAT wrote:


Is it possible to win a game by playing without doing "evil" things? or is blowing up planets and being a space asshole NEEDED?

I wonder if you can win via diplomacy only, making the game just incredibly harder...

Do you think its possible?

Also, when is it coming out!>>!!> i preordered!


You certainly CAN win without doing anything evil. Because Artifacts are MIA, you can get by without them, although it would be difficult if you didn't challenge any space stations. You don't have to subjugate outposts, and you certainly don't have to torch whole planets.

I don't know if winning simply via Diplomacy is possible, as all of the space enemies have to be defeated in combat, and don't have a Diplomacy option. I'll have to look at the Advanced Action deck, but I know there are some cards that let you use X as Y, so if there is a "Use Diplomacy as attack" card you could kind of do it, if you squinted a bit and used your imagination.

I don't have any insight on a release date unfortunately.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Richard Ham
Malta
Marsalforn
Gozo, Malta
flag msg tools
badge
CLICK THIS BEAGLE if you're looking for in-depth gameplay video run-throughs! :)
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Are the rules actually available anywhere to DL? I'm dying to see the game for myself, but that's probably a long way off, and in the meantime I'd love to see what specifically the rules say about the actions available in a Star Trek context...
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
secoAce -
United States
flag msg tools
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
NerdyRaptor wrote:
John Blank wrote:

I agree it would be strange for Picard to lay waste to a planet, but it would not be out of the ordinary for a Star Fleet Captain or Admiral to lay waste to a planet, since that kind of thing has happened many times in the TV shows and movies. I do like the ability to have Picard be evil, though. And ultimately it's up to the players choice. People can play captains to type or have them go against type.


True!

For me, it doesn't work well in my brain, but what I see as a negative can easily be turned into a positive for someone who always wondered what it would be like if Picard used his power for selfish gain.


Maybe Picard is under some kind of alien mind control. In which case then the crew has to first discovery that and then find some way of freeing and restoring Picard....ooohhhh...more story elements can then be introduced!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Rat
United States
New York
flag msg tools
rahdo wrote:
Are the rules actually available anywhere to DL? I'm dying to see the game for myself, but that's probably a long way off, and in the meantime I'd love to see what specifically the rules say about the actions available in a Star Trek context...


marcowargammer and tomV already have copies HOWWW!!!!!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Nick Rat
United States
New York
flag msg tools
NerdyRaptor wrote:
NICKtheRAT wrote:


Is it possible to win a game by playing without doing "evil" things? or is blowing up planets and being a space asshole NEEDED?

I wonder if you can win via diplomacy only, making the game just incredibly harder...

Do you think its possible?

Also, when is it coming out!>>!!> i preordered!


You certainly CAN win without doing anything evil. Because Artifacts are MIA, you can get by without them, although it would be difficult if you didn't challenge any space stations. You don't have to subjugate outposts, and you certainly don't have to torch whole planets.

I don't know if winning simply via Diplomacy is possible, as all of the space enemies have to be defeated in combat, and don't have a Diplomacy option. I'll have to look at the Advanced Action deck, but I know there are some cards that let you use X as Y, so if there is a "Use Diplomacy as attack" card you could kind of do it, if you squinted a bit and used your imagination.

I don't have any insight on a release date unfortunately.


Nuking ships is fine. ive seen picard do that a fair amount of times
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♫ Eric Herman ♫
United States
West Richland
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I like elephants. I like how they swing through trees.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Raptor, if you can answer this, I'd really appreciate it...

Andrew Parks said in an earlier thread that there were "dozens" of cards in the game that don't have comparable analogs to MK.

Here's the exact quote:
Quote:
Although there are many cards that are similar to those in MK, there are many that are completely new. For example, there are dozens of cards in both the Advanced Action deck and Undiscovered deck that have no correspondence to cards in MK.


From the two videos I've seen (from Tom Vasel and Marco), I noticed a few small differences on some cards, but it didn't seem likely that there were dozens of unique cards. Would you say that's accurate or not?

And among the new cards, however many, are there any abilities that aren't just different combinations of attack, move, diplomacy, etc., but introduce some entirely new abilities, like what we might have seen on new Advanced Action cards in Lost Legion (but not just copies of those)? More than anything, having some interesting types of new cards to acquire and play around with would be very appealing.

Also, same question but with skills. Do they tend to match the ones from the original four MK characters, or are there new types of things?

Also also, can you speak to anything about the scenarios... Are they the same essential ones as base game MK, or are there different types of things?

--------------------

As far as the idea of Picard blowing up a planet, yes, that does seem out of character, big time, but in MK, burning down a monastery is always an optional thing. So presumably, you could play to character in ST:F, where a Klingon would destroy a planet for a tactical advantage, but Picard wouldn't.

And there is quite a lot of combat, with spaceships and fisticuffs, in Star Trek, so I'm okay with having a fair amount of that represented in the game. Not everything can be resolved with diplomacy.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
♫ Eric Herman ♫
United States
West Richland
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
badge
I like elephants. I like how they swing through trees.
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Also, please post a link here when your review goes live, so we can be notified. cool
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.