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The Great War: Tank Expansion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Can you confirm more hits than you originally rolled? rss

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George Curtiss
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A tank is bogged and targeted by a male tank at two hexes range. 3 dice are rolled in the initial attack. A soldier, a HQ star, and a deadly die are the result.

Now the deadly die will be rolled again to confirm the hit. Two additional dice will join the confirmation roll (one for the male tank attack at range 1 or 2, and one for the target tank being bogged).

If 2 or 3 bursts result on the confirmation roll, does the target tank take just one hit or can up to 3 hits be taken?

I think that a maximum of one hit can happen in this scenario, but I know other wise gamers who disagree, or are at least confused. They think I am the confused one!

 
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Greg
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I'd say that you get to apply as many bursts as are rolled after the confirmed roll.

There's nothing that I saw that said that you only get to keep as many confirmed hits as were rolled originally.

The way I look at it, while you might have only rolled one hit to begin with, it could have been a really good penetrating hit that did a ton of damage. The target is bogged down, so easier to hit, and it is being targeted by a male tank with a 6 pounder. So to me, those circumstances should allow for a killing blow to the enemy tank.
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Dan Poole
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I am pretty sure you cannot have more confirmations than original hits. So if you get two hits originally and end up rolling three confirmation bursts, you still only get two hits.
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George Curtiss
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Thanks for your opinions, guys. You sound like my group!

I can see the coolness of a great critical hit that takes a strong tank down with one perfect shot. I can also figure that when you confirm a possible hit, that is all you do - confirm the hit.

Greg, your way is the way we played it, and I lost a couple tanks to double burst confirmation die rolls when only one hit was scored (by a male tank at close range - once on a "Strike First!" Even cool on the receiving end!!

Dan, I wouldn't use the term "confirming" die roll if I wanted more hits to be possible than on the first roll. Maybe "subsequent" would be more accurate. So I can see it your way, too!

I guess we need a more detailed rule or a "Borgsez" for the FAQ...
 
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Greg
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voynix wrote:
I am pretty sure you cannot have more confirmations than original hits. So if you get two hits originally and end up rolling three confirmation bursts, you still only get two hits.


Is there a place in the rules that says that you cannot have more confirmed hits that original hits?

Basically, each burst and each deadly die side (when applicable) will be rerolled to confirm the hit/s. All dice are rerolled together.


One additional die is added to the confirming hit die roll when:

A tank is bogged down
A tank is ditched
One or more hits is scored by artillery (field or reserve)
One or more hits is scored by a male tank cannon attack.

Also, flags that cannot be ignored will be added to the reroll pool, but at least one burst/deadly die (when applicable) needs to have been also rolled with the extra flag (any additional after first one that tanks ignore) for that flag to be added to the reroll.

On the reroll, a burst symbol will confirm a hit and one tank silhouette token is removed from the tank for each confirmed hit.


I don't see anything that says that there is a limit of how many bursts actually count after the reroll. It just says that a tank silhouette marker will be removed for each burst symbol from the reroll.
 
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George Curtiss
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Greg, the flag stuff you definitely have misinterpreted. After the first flag (when it can be ignored), additional flags "are treated as a potential hit that must be confirmed." No requirement for any other hits by deadly die or burst. See tank retreat section on page 10.
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Greg
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Thanks George, I could have swore that I read somewhere in a thread where Mr. Borg said that there must have been at least one legit burst/deadly die original hit for the extra flag to count toward potential hits. Maybe I'm confusing this with something else blush
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George Curtiss
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No problem!

I wish there was one extra sentence on page 10 addressing what you said in your first response. You said nowhere in the rules does it say you can't have more hits than the original hit or hits needing confirmation. You are right about that!

That is the clarification I want. Either 1 is right or 2.

1. It is possible to score more hits than you rolled on the first roll.

or

2. Additional bursts rolled on the confirming dice roll beyond the number of potential hits on the original dice roll have no effect.
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Greg
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Here's the thread where I saw Mr. Borg answer about requiring one original hit to be rolled in order to reroll any extra dice.

https://boardgamegeek.com/article/22855934#22855934

I also asked your question in that thread just now, so we'll see if we get some more answers.

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George Curtiss
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I saw that. Thanks! You doubled our chances of a response! Hopefully we will get a response from Mr. Borg, as his opinion will settle the matter.

I am sure on the flags, however. If you roll 4 dice on an initial attack and get 4 flags, normally you would have 3 rerolled dice to confirm up to 3 hits. No deadly die or burst needed on the first roll. Bursts needed on the confirmation.
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Greg
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Looking at the rules again George and I see that you are right about the flags. For some reason I had thought they were considered extra dice that could only be added with one or more regular hits. But it does say that flags that can't be ignored are considered hits that must be confirmed.

Sometimes the way stuff is layer out, it can be confusing.

Thanks for straightening me out on that George.
 
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Dan Poole
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The extra confirm dice rolled act as a bonus to make it easier to confirm your original hit(s). You do not get extra hits beyond the original number of unconfirmed hits. If that were the case, the tanks would be way too easy to destroy.

Though not officially answered, it was officially ruled you can't confirm zero hits. The same thing applies here; you can't confirm hits you originally did not roll.
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Mayor Jim
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voynix wrote:
The extra confirm dice rolled act as a bonus to make it easier to confirm your original hit(s). You do not get extra hits beyond the original number of unconfirmed hits. If that were the case, the tanks would be way too easy to destroy.

Though not officially answered, it was officially ruled you can't confirm zero hits. The same thing applies here; you can't confirm hits you originally did not roll.

This explanation makes sense...but, would still prefer to have an "official" ruling...
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Jon Snow
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Yes, we do need a ruling here. The problem is, from a game design point of view, it could possibly go either way, even against the common sense use of the term "confirm!"
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Greg
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chas59 wrote:
Yes, we do need a ruling here. The problem is, from a game design point of view, it could possibly go either way, even against the common sense use of the term "confirm!"


Yes, we do need an official ruling.

This is pretty important because initially, people were saying how overpowered tanks are and that they are nearly impossible to damage or destroy. So if those people aren't allowing for more rerolled hits to apply than original ones, but were supposed to, then it would make sense as to why they were having so much trouble damaging or destroying tanks.

As for being too powerful to count excesses and making it too easy to take out tanks, I don't know. First you have to roll bursts, excess flags or deadly die faces when applicable. Then you may only get 2 extra dice because either bogged down or ditched for 1 extra die, or from artillery or male tank, for 1 extra die. Then you have to roll bursts on those dice, for 1 in 6 chance per die. Certainly not automatic.

Doesn't matter to me either way, but I'd like to get an official answer and play it as intended and tested.
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George Curtiss
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My sentiments exactly, Greg.

If tanks are too strong in this game, allowing extra hits mitigates that. I think the possibility of a catastrophic critical hit is fun, and realistic.

If I had to judge based on the rules as written, I'd go with the word "confirm" and not allow extra hits.

My most important preference is for the game to have one set of official rules, that we play by unless both players agree beforehand on a house rule.
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Jim Dauphinais
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As others have said, you do not get extra hits from confirmation rolls. Extra confirmation dice just increase the likelihood the potential hit is in fact a hit.

If you want Richard to further rule on it, send him an e-mail asking for him to come look at the question here in this discussion (provide him a link to it as well). I have found that is the best way to get a response from him.
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George Curtiss
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Email to Richard Borg sent.

I agree with you on this, Jim, but can see the fun and possibly the better balance with the other interpretation. So I suppose it is all good!

Thanks for the advice on getting a ruling!
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Dan Poole
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Meaning no disrespect, I really don't understand the confusion over this rule. You can't get more hits than originally rolled. By the way, doing so would really imbalance the scenarios making tanks to easy to destroy.
 
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Greg
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voynix wrote:
Meaning no disrespect, I really don't understand the confusion over this rule. You can't get more hits than originally rolled. By the way, doing so would really imbalance the scenarios making tanks to easy to destroy.


No disrespect taken

Typically, a burst automatically is a hit, as is a deadly die face when applicable. So you could potentially roll 3 bursts and then reroll 3 dice and get none.

Then you have the thing about excess flags counting as hits that can be rerolled, and not requiring any bursts or deadly die to also be rolled in order for you to reroll the excess flags.

I see the reasoning that confirming a hit is nothing more than making the tanks show their toughness and 3 bursts can end up being nothing if none are rolled with the reroll.

I just think that a line of clarification would have made sure there was no confusion. All that was required is to say that you cannot apply any more hits than originally rolled. Super quick and easy.

As far as making it too easy, well I certainly recall a lot of discussion about how tanks are too powerful and neigh impossible to destroy. People didn't think it was balanced etc.

So while I may have misinterpreted the way it plays out, I'm happy to play it where no excessive hits are allowed if that's the intent. But then I really don't want to hear anyone complaining that the tanks are too hard to destroy.
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George Curtiss
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No disrespect taken.

I'm the original poster, and from post 1 I've been clear about how I think this should be ruled. I agree with your interpretation. Still, sharp, experienced gamers with loads of Borg-system experience have weighed in on the other side.
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just did on a similar thread. In my opinion, the game works just as well either way, but I'm not a fan of house rules.

There has been talk of a computer or tablet version of this game in the future. Detailed rules will be important for that. Why not opt for a little more precision now?
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Quote:
TGW:T p.10: On the reroll, a burst symbol will confirm a hit and one tank silhouette is removed from the tank for each confirmed hit.


I read that as each burst symbol that comes up on the re-roll puts a confirmed hit on the tank. A clarification that the re-roll can or cannot confirm more hits than the original combat roll placed on the tank would be welcome. I'm good either way.

I think the rule is easy to interpret, apply, and remember that each burst rolled on the re-roll puts a confirmed hit on the tank regardless of the number of hits placed in the combat roll. The chance of getting two (or three!) confirmed hits off a single hit in that case is very low and based on a special set of circumstances: a bogged tank and/or being hit by heavy weapons. I think it's more likely to roll several hits in the initial combat roll and totally whiff the following re-roll.

My reading about WWI tanks is that the majority were lost/ disabled/ rendered ineffective in an offensive for a variety of reasons. I think the game makes tanks fearsome machines as long as they are able to move about, but if one gets bogged down or is hit by heavy weapons, they should succumb more easily. Ditching one to deny the enemy a medal when it gets stuck should be seriously considered!
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Bart de Groot
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BradyLS wrote:
Quote:
TGW:T p.10: On the reroll, a burst symbol will confirm a hit and one tank silhouette is removed from the tank for each confirmed hit.


I read that as each burst symbol that comes up on the re-roll puts a confirmed hit on the tank. A clarification that the re-roll can or cannot confirm more hits than the original combat roll placed on the tank would be welcome. I'm good either way.


You need to first roll a hit, then you need to roll to confirm the hit. Only the pair together (hit + confirm) takes away a figure. If you roll hits without confirms you get nothing. If you roll confirms without hits you get nothing. "a burst symbol will confirm a hit" gives you the 2nd part of the pairing, you still need to have a hit from the first roll to match it with for effect.
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Richard Borg
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Hi All
Sorry for the confusion, basically how confirming hits works on tanks is as follows:

First - You must get a hit on the tank, in order to roll additional dice to confirm the hit, see "Targeting Tanks & Confirming Hits" page 10.

Second - On the reroll, each die that rolls a burst will remove one tank silhouette token. That means, two bursts on the reroll, will remove two tank silhouette tokens and three bursts on the reroll, will remove three tank silhouette tokens. Of course, when all the tokens have been removed from a tank, the next confirmed hit (burst) will remove the tank model.

I will add this clarification to my notes to make this clearer in the next printing.

Thanks for playing and Enjoy!
Richard Borg
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Greg
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Thanks Richard! That's how I had interpreted it.
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