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Subject: Miniature rss

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MS-06 Zaku II
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I am going to order this game, but one question is in my mind: why it doesn't come with any miniatures?

My guess if it has, it will be more successful to raise more funds
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Kevin L. Kitchens
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ah3Dog wrote:
I am going to order this game, but one question is in my mind: why it doesn't come with any miniatures?

My guess if it has, it will be more successful to raise more funds


Kind of glad they didn't personally.
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Thibaud de la Touanne
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ah3Dog wrote:
I am going to order this game, but one question is in my mind: why it doesn't come with any miniatures?

My guess if it has, it will be more successful to raise more funds


Hello,

The plan was to have minis, but I anticipated that it would add another BIG challenge to this project, that was already a HUGE project.
It was a very difficult decision to take, because I love minis and because I knew that the Kickstarter would raise less funds. But it was a wise decision I think.
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Jerry
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Once the game is completed and delivered [ whenever that is - taking soooo long ] just run a new KS for the miniature upgrade set. Just minis, nothing else (unless you have lots of errata, then an updated rulebook).
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François Mahieu
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Laporbo wrote:
Once the game is completed and delivered [ whenever that is - taking soooo long ] just run a new KS for the miniature upgrade set. Just minis, nothing else (unless you have lots of errata, then an updated rulebook).


Nicest idea I've read these past weeks! +6000
 
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Thibaud de la Touanne
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Laporbo wrote:
Once the game is completed and delivered [ whenever that is - taking soooo long ] just run a new KS for the miniature upgrade set. Just minis, nothing else (unless you have lots of errata, then an updated rulebook).


This is one of the things we are thinking about
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Ollie Thomas Thor Ellis-Sargeant
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I played a demo of the game over the weekend at UKGE and the addition of minis might overcomplicate some of the mechanics. For instance, the commandos can be in a different state of visibility depending on their actions, how will this be represented on the miniature? The commando tokens are double sided and contain different information on either side.
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fightcitymayor
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HouseOfStark wrote:
I played a demo of the game over the weekend at UKGE and the addition of minis might overcomplicate some of the mechanics. For instance, the commandos can be in a different state of visibility depending on their actions, how will this be represented on the miniature? The commando tokens are double sided and contain different information on either side.
Exactly. The tokens help in this regard.

And for anyone that wants minis, there are literally dozens of manufacturers that have 28mm, or 15mm, or 1/72 WW2 minis for sale. It isn't exactly an underserved portion of the miniatures world, and as a result I'm not sure a new Kickstarter just for those would be necessary (unless you were focusing on just the heroes or named characters.)
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Karsten Keese
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A second Kickstarter Campaign to add Miniatures to the Game

ThibaudMTL wrote:
Laporbo wrote:
Once the game is completed and delivered, run a new KS for the miniature upgrade set and, if there are lots of errata, include an updated rulebook.

This is one of the things we are thinking about

In another thread about the BackerKit, you replied that the pre-order period for the base game would end in June 2016:
ThibaudMTL wrote:
ah3Dog wrote:
Any idea when will be the last date of pre-order?
Sorry, not yet. End of June probably.

This would mean that in the first KS campaign, people got the game without figures, and in the second one, they will get the figures without the game.

Is that decision already set in stone?

Should you decide to really run a crowdfunding campaign for 3D game materials, it might be a good idea to leave the door to the main game open, instead of waiting until the game box has shipped. Moreover, it cannot hurt to include a section in the miniature KS where people are informed that they can «add $145 NZD to your pledge to obtain the base game + all stretch goals and expansions», or offer pledge levels to cover this. Sending out everything together not only saves shipping fees, but it would allow people to obtain the complete game in the way it should have come from the start, instead of giving them a feeling of having missed out on something.

Apart from miniature figures, this game is perfect to be enhanced with 3D buildings and scenery as well, for instance the stuff from BattleSystems or PrintableScenery. Since they have already developed their products, maybe they are open to providing 750 copies at a good price or can help in other ways?

The same goes for miniature figures, by the way. There is no shortage of World War II miniatures in all forms, shapes and sizes, and the good manufacturers (Caesar, HäT, Zvezda, ...) produce really good detail even in plastic. If all else fails and the development of your own figures turns out to be too expensive, maybe buying the necessary number of boxes from WW II figure companies' existing ranges can be negotiated?

One important aspect to take into consideration when dealing with anything miniature figure related is the chaos of scale & size in the industry. Contrary to the manufacturers of plastic model kits of aircraft, cars and tanks, those that churn out miniatures interpret those terms with unrestricted imperti..., eh, liberty. In order to make sure that what one gathers together mixes and matches nicely, a brief look at some basics about scales & sizes might not hurt, because there are several advantages of sticking to standard scales.

Then again, after 20 years in the digital game industry, you surely know a lot of Modo/MudBox/ZBrush wizards who owe you a favour or are your friends. If you prefer to create your own figures, take a look at alternative materials and their manufacturers. The example below is from Prodos Games, because I had the table at hand and their products are of very good sculpt quality, but there are others who are more reliable and pleasant to work with. The advantage of resin, Unicast and similar materials consists in the fact that they do not require the enormous volumes that would be needed to make injection-moulds for plastic figures financially viable:

Should you decide to continue on the luxury road and opt for metal, get in touch with Michael Cremerius of Germania Figuren. He is a quality fanatic at relatively affordable prices (even substituting brittle parts such as spears with steel to prevent breaking), works with good sculptors and does the casting for many of them who were not satisfied with the quality of other mould/casting/manufacturers. He also develops and produces custom figure lines for collectors, so one-stop shopping is an option, if desired. If not, the gentleman will be able to point you in the right direction for what you plan. This does not exclude an exchange with other small publishers, such as Mike and Steve from Firelock Games, who created the beautiful Blood & Plunder. Asking never hurts; maybe there's some mutual benefit in talking about difficulties and experiences?

Last but not least, there is a pitfall that has been the demise of many a game company: looking at miniature figures, horses, houses, ships, and other game materials from the frog perspective of 'cost', instead of keeping an eagle's eye on the market. When giving in to the temptation of producing battalions of cloned Imperial Stormtroopers, the initial setup costs are lower, sure, but those are one-time costs for design/sculpture and mould production. The problem is that if you already have twins and triplets in a box, there is no need to buy a second or third one, because quadruplets/quintuplets/sextuplets/septuplets/octuplets look unrealistic and silly in even a big army. If every model and pose in a box/range/set is unique, however, many people will buy two or three boxes to build up their armies, because two or three identical figures among many more different ones won't be noticed. Furthermore, players of other games will find more suitable material for them the more variety and variation there is, which opens up welcome opportunities to sell one's game materials not just to diehard fans of one's own products, but to fans of other games as well.

Miniatures are not everything: there are many game accessory companies that provide or produce simpler game materials at affordable prices, too many to list them all here -- the names mentioned here should be regarded as examples for illustrative purposes, proper sourcing requires a more integrated approach.

You may want to have the borders of the bases 'pre-lined' with the flags, so that every child can paint them easily (not everybody is as good at free-lining as this guy):


It goes without saying that there are many more companies and service providers out there that can help with the design, production and distribution of board games:



The correct choice depends on the kind of approach you intend to take with the second KS campaign. Whatever you decide, though, one thing is as sure as the 'Amen' in church: closing the BackerKit door on the main game before the miniature card has been played is something you might want to think about once more.

HouseOfStark wrote:
The Commandos can be in a different state of visibility depending on their actions, and their tokens are double-sided, containing information on both sides. How will this be represented on the miniature?

There are several ways of handling this, for example:
a) Include one miniature per state, e.g. one in their Commando outfit and one in Wehrmacht-uniform (that's why the bases should indicate the flags) and one in a transparent material when invisible.
b) Include a dashboard or character card on which all parameters for a character are logged. Examples can be seen in La Boite de Jeu's Outlive, Guillotine Games' Massive Darkness, Postindustrial Games' «Human Universal Dashboard» for Human Interface or White Dragon Miniatures' Stat Trackers for their Shattered Void.
c) Display an avatar's parameters in the base, like Seth Johnson designed them for WizKids' HeroClix/HorrorClix/Mage Knight games or even better, Hawk Wargames's bases for Dropfleet Commander.
d) Any combination of the above.

With regard to translations, there is a very economical way of doing that. There are a few fundamental principles and guidelines, but if the topic interests you, send me a private message with your e-mail address and we can take it from there. The same goes for a more thorough planning of the sourcing and development process of «V-C Phase II», if you wish, because so far we merely scratched the surface.

Either way, good luck and take heart, I know you've got a lot on your plate as it is and wish you the best.
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Jake Rose
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KarstenKeese wrote:

Then again, after 20 years in the digital game industry, you must surely know a lot of Modo/MudBox/ZBrush wizards who owe you a favour or are your friends. If you prefer to create your own figures, take a look at Prodos Games, because their products are of excellent sculpt quality without requiring the huge production volumes that are needed to make plastic figures viable:





No. Do NOT look at Prodos/Archon or whatever they change their name to in the future. Instead use a company with a bit of integrity. There are a lot of folks (including myself) who refuse to give Jarek and crew another cent, and for good reason. Check out the AvP forum and LOAD forum.
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Karsten Keese
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jakecarol wrote:
Prodos/Archon or whatever they change their name to in the future lack integrity and there are a lot of folks who refuse to give Jarek and crew another cent.

Ehhh, yes, sorry, what I meant is «take a look at alternative manufacturers and materials», just that I had the Prodos example at hand. In fact, I know of Polish game companies who do not work with these Polish colleagues of theirs.

Thanks for pointing this out, typed it in a hurry and will correct the wording.
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Esben Christiansen
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For the German troops I would just recommend that people buy a box of regular German infantry as there are so many miniature companies that sells WW2 miniatures, the only thing I can see would be an idea to make a KS for would be the Commandos and special NPCs.

I know one can buy some boxes as allied troops and make ones own commandos which seems a bit expensive if you don't want to try switching sides.
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Moe45673
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Personally, I like the flat counters. This is something I also like about Heroes of Normandie and even a game like Conflict of Heroes, big beautiful counters that have a lot of detail on them (that aren't obtuse to read) and can be flipped. Would the preorder SS troop bonus have happened if they were minis instead of counters? Highly doubt it!

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Allan Doyle

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I don't feel this game needs miniatures. Miniature for a game take a lot of resources. Art, sculptors,manufactures, packaging. Time and money that could be put towards other goals when there is an overabundance of miniatures already on the market. In any scale.

But that being said, I do feel miniatures would add to the visual of this game. I'm thinking 20mm. I haven't researched that scale yet, but feel it would play better on the maps. Also would be easier to scratch build 3d maps.

As to the game status of a miniature, a simple clip on the side of the base, ala Tide of Iron, should be all you need. Just make a counter to swap in and out.
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X. Nostradunwhich
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AKDoyle wrote:
I don't feel this game needs miniatures. Miniature for a game take a lot of resources. Art, sculptors,manufactures, packaging. Time and money that could be put towards other goals when there is an overabundance of miniatures already on the market. In any scale.

I agree with Allan, not only is it really not needed, but it is spending a lot of resources to enter a pretty saturated market. There are a lot of miniatures already available for this time period

AKDoyle wrote:
But that being said, I do feel miniatures would add to the visual of this game. I'm thinking 20mm. I haven't researched that scale yet, but feel it would play better on the maps. Also would be easier to scratch build 3d maps.

As to the game status of a miniature, a simple clip on the side of the base, ala Tide of Iron, should be all you need. Just make a counter to swap in and out.

Hmmm... Good points.

I really like the idea of the clip to hold the status. Other option would be something that can go under the miniature of course. That has been done by others and it works pretty well. Magnetize them and add a little paper steel or a washer under the fig and you are good to go
 
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