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Subject: What should we do with situations like this? rss

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Would you let them compete?
Is it fair?

In short, high school boy thinks hes a girl, ran against girls in track and won.


https://pjmedia.com/trending/2016/06/06/teen-male-identifyin...
 
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J.D. Hall
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Didn't we go through this already with Renee Richards, the transgendered pro tennis player back in the 1970s and 1980s? These things sort themselves out over time.
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Josh
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Use more nouns.
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Damian
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remorseless1 wrote:
Didn't we go through this already with Renee Richards, the transgendered pro tennis player back in the 1970s and 1980s? These things sort themselves out over time.

No. We've already been establishing a process for adult players, including professionals like Richards and international amateurs like the Olympics. This is about high school (and younger) athletes. We can't necessarily apply the same standards for adolescents because it may not be ethical to require the same level of biological change to make things truly "fair". It's a tough spot.
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Andrew Bartosh

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Honestly, I find this particular thing (gendered sports leagues) to be sort of an interesting confluence of problems.

On the one hand, yeah, you get a gut feeling that says biologically speaking? Males and females are different, so allowing a biological male to compete is sorta unfair.

On the other hand, I'm 5'6" and was never going to be good at basketball. Strictly speaking, allowing those tall, naturally athletic people to compete is unfair too since, for this purpose, they are ALSO genetically superior to me.

All told, however, if you want to run boys leagues and girls leagues though, you probably do have to maintain a genetic barrier regardless of gender identity.
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Boaty McBoatface
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Do away with gender segregate sport, and let the actual best triumph. But then I think sport is (unless you are participating) a waste of time anyway.
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Andrew Bartosh

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bjlillo wrote:
AndrewRogue wrote:
All told, however, if you want to run boys leagues and girls leagues though, you probably do have to maintain a genetic barrier regardless of gender identity.


And lose your Federal funding in the process.


Does that currently apply? My understanding was the federal funding was bathroom oriented only.
 
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Isn't this what a lot of you want?
People to be able to claim they are something, and be treated as such?
 
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J.D. Hall
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bjlillo wrote:
AndrewRogue wrote:
All told, however, if you want to run boys leagues and girls leagues though, you probably do have to maintain a genetic barrier regardless of gender identity.


And lose your Federal funding in the process.

Uhm, no. All that is required by Title 9 is that an equal number of extra-curricular sports be offered to both genders and that all teams regardless of gender make-up are supported in an equitable manner. Title 9 does not address transgendered individuals.
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TheDashi wrote:
Isn't this what a lot of you want?
People to be able to claim they are something, and be treated as such?
If claim=reveal=acknowledge=accept=admit=embrace, then yes. Physical competition is something that requires some creative problem solving to allow people to do it fairly.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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TheDashi wrote:
Isn't this what a lot of you want?
People to be able to claim they are something, and be treated as such?
Yes, and some of us have not disagreed with it.
 
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J.D. Hall
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TheDashi wrote:
Isn't this what a lot of you want?
People to be able to claim they are something, and be treated as such?

I can't speak for other people here or anywhere else. What I am adamant about is that there are people who have a recognized psychiatric condition known as gender dysmorphia be respected and given access to treatment.

I don't understand why some people think of this as perversion or something people do for fun. It is a serious condition that leads to depression, suicide attempts, alienation, etc. It's also not common in the slightest, so I would guess anyone's chances of actually encountering a transgender individual are far less likely than they would believe.
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TheDashi wrote:
Isn't this what a lot of you want?
People to be able to claim they are something, and be treated as such?


I've said in other threads that bathrooms aren't like athletic competitions.

Do you expect me to change my tune now that you directly address athletic competitions?
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Andrew Bartosh

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TheDashi wrote:
Isn't this what a lot of you want?
People to be able to claim they are something, and be treated as such?


Yes and no, in my case. It might be more accurate to say that I wish people cared significantly less about what other people claimed they were. There are, of course, going to be practical issues with it (particularly when we maintain a lot of gender segregation), but I generally feel, given the trajectory of first world culture, we'll probably see those barriers continue to break down.

Wouldn't be surprised if we reached a point of gender neutral showers and stuff.
 
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remorseless1 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
Isn't this what a lot of you want?
People to be able to claim they are something, and be treated as such?

I can't speak for other people here or anywhere else. What I am adamant about is that there are people who have a recognized psychiatric condition known as gender dysmorphia be respected and given access to treatment.

I don't understand why some people think of this as perversion or something people do for fun. It is a serious condition that leads to depression, suicide attempts, alienation, etc. It's also not common in the slightest, so I would guess anyone's chances of actually encountering a transgender individual are far less likely than they would believe.


1/3333 isn't THAT rare. Remember the ice bucket challenge? It's about an order of magnitude more common than ALS.

Having ALS doesn't challenge cultural norms or "stuff in the Bible" so it went a lot easier, though.
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Christopher Yaure
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The reason for segregating by gender in sports is different than the reason for segregating by gender for bathrooms, so there is nothing inconsistent about using a different standard for the two.
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AndrewRogue wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if we reached a point of gender neutral showers and stuff.


Eh I think that's at least 30 years away if it's going to happen in America, and probably more like 70+. As a culture we have a lot of hangups about shared sex showers -- and showers are directly sexualized too! It'd be a fairly major shift.

If you mean gender neutral shower stalls with locks, then sure, some of those probably already exist.
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actuaryesquire wrote:
The reason for segregating by gender in sports is different than the reason for segregating by gender for bathrooms, so there is nothing inconsistent about using a different standard for the two.


How so?
Man that claims to be a woman DEMANDS to use the womans room because he FEELS that he is a woman.

Man that claims to be a woman DEMANDS to run in the womens races because he feels that he is a woman.

How are these different?
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Terwox wrote:
AndrewRogue wrote:
Wouldn't be surprised if we reached a point of gender neutral showers and stuff.


Eh I think that's at least 30 years away if it's going to happen in America, and probably more like 70+. As a culture we have a lot of hangups about shared sex showers -- and showers are directly sexualized too! It'd be a fairly major shift.

If you mean gender neutral shower stalls with locks, then sure, some of those probably already exist.


What about the whole rape culture?
 
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TheDashi wrote:
What about the whole rape culture?
Do you even know what the term means? It has nothing whatsoever to do with this conversation, I can't even imagine a parallel or metaphor that links them.
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TheChin! wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
What about the whole rape culture?
Do you even know what the term means? It has nothing whatsoever to do with this conversation, I can't even imagine a parallel or metaphor that links them.


YOu should think harder then.
 
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TheDashi wrote:
YOu should think harder then.
I suppose I can link anything if I think hard enough and remove my preposterous filter or my knowledge of how the world works. But it doesn't seem worth the effort.
 
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Christopher Yaure
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remorseless1 wrote:
TheDashi wrote:
Isn't this what a lot of you want?
People to be able to claim they are something, and be treated as such?

I can't speak for other people here or anywhere else. What I am adamant about is that there are people who have a recognized psychiatric condition known as gender dysmorphia be respected and given access to treatment.

I don't understand why some people think of this as perversion or something people do for fun. It is a serious condition that leads to depression, suicide attempts, alienation, etc. It's also not common in the slightest, so I would guess anyone's chances of actually encountering a transgender individual are far less likely than they would believe.


Are you intentionally conflating body dysmporphia and gender dysphoria Trans folks rarely have body dysmorphia, so your reference to transgender individuals after discussing gender dysmporphia is, at best, a sign you are confused.
 
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Christopher Yaure
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TheDashi wrote:
actuaryesquire wrote:
The reason for segregating by gender in sports is different than the reason for segregating by gender for bathrooms, so there is nothing inconsistent about using a different standard for the two.


How so?
Man that claims to be a woman DEMANDS to use the womans room because he FEELS that he is a woman.

Man that claims to be a woman DEMANDS to run in the womens races because he feels that he is a woman.

How are these different?


I referred to the "reason for segregation" Your response does not address the reasons for segregation; it addresses the reasons a transgender person might seek an accommodation.

Athletic contests are segregated due to perceived or actual differences in body structure, strength, and other physical characteristics having little or nothing to do with emotional or psychological factors.

Bathrooms are segregated due to perceived privacy and safety issues having little to do with the physical characteristics of the individual using the bathroom, and much to do with the behavior of other individuals.
 
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Boaty McBoatface
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TheDashi wrote:
actuaryesquire wrote:
The reason for segregating by gender in sports is different than the reason for segregating by gender for bathrooms, so there is nothing inconsistent about using a different standard for the two.


How so?
Man that claims to be a woman DEMANDS to use the womans room because he FEELS that he is a woman.

Man that claims to be a woman DEMANDS to run in the womens races because he feels that he is a woman.

How are these different?
Even though I do not think there should be gender segregation in sport, even I know the difference between using bathroom and physical aptitude.

 
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