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Subject: Question re: "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..." rss

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kevan sumner
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If the US player plays "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..." on the last round of your turn, and picks up a scoring card, what happens? Is this an exception circumstance where they can hold onto the scoring card into the next turn?
 
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brian
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The rules state in 10.1.5 that a card effect cannot force you to hold a Scoring card through the effects of an event. If Ask Not is played as the last card during your turn and you discard your held card but then draw a Scoring card, I can't see where you would lose the game for holding the card. But I also don't see how you can hold onto the Scoring card either. Not being able to find anything here or in the FAQ, my opinion is this: You must discard the Scoring card; then on the next turn, draw to get your hand size back up to 9 cards.
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J
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Based on various rulings I've read, I'd say that if you put yourself in this situation, you lose. There was some other instance where it was ruled that if you ended up holding a scoring card, you had started a nuclear war and lost. Better not play Ask Not as your last event of the turn!
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Ananda Gupta
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Re: Question re: "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..
Jesse is correct.
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brian
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rootbeer wrote:
Better not play Ask Not as your last event of the turn!

Agreed. The best option is to avoid Ask Not as the last card of your turn. Or use it for the Ops points only. Or if your opponent plays it, decline to draw new cards.

But I still feel rule 10.1.5 wouldn't force you to lose the game. I agree if you foolishly degrade DEFCON when it is already at 2, or your opponent cleverly sequences his cards to force you into nuclear war by no other choice, or you haphazardly hold on to a Scoring Card by your own power, or the text on your last card directly causes you to lose the game, you lose period.

But Ask Not does none of this directly. It is perfectly legal (in my mind) to play Ask Not at the end of your turn. You should not be penalized by pure bad luck of drawing a Scoring Card that you cannot play and lose the game. I think this is the spirit of the 10.1.5 rule, to avoid the off chance that an event that has nothing to do with directly losing the game puts you in a position to hold a Scoring Card at the end of your turn.

Of 10.1.5 does not protect this situation, what exactly is 10.1.5 in the rules for?
 
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David Gardner
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Re: Question re: "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..
But when the game's co-designer says you lose, I take that pretty seriously.

I think the ruling that "you lose" is fair. The US player should go in eyes wide open as he/she decides how many cards (IF any) to draw.

I do feel, though, that this outcome should be included in the 10.3 VICTORY section of the rules. The three bulleted examples of "Automatic Victory" (10.3.1) do not mention an example of where a scoring card is a held card for one side.
 
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brian
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My response was written at the same time Ananda posted. So it wasn't there when I first started typing.

I just think it leaves too much to chance to lose this way instead of an "honest" loss by violating something in your control. Not a big deal. I agree with Jesse not to get yourself in the situation to begin with and you won't have to worry about it.

I would still like to know what rule 10.5.1 is there for. The only scenario I can see is if USSR plays Aldrich Ames and the US has a scoring card. USSR can't put it as the last card and force a loss that way.
 
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J
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BrianMola wrote:
I would still like to know what rule 10.5.1 is there for. The only scenario I can see is if USSR plays Aldrich Ames and the US has a scoring card. USSR can't put it as the last card and force a loss that way.


I'd be interested to know, also. My post above wasn't based on any specific rule, just discussions I'd seen previously on a similar topic.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Rule 10.5.1 is to stop Aldritch Ames putting a scoring card at the back of the US hand. There may be other uses, but I've seen that one tallked about.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Re: Question re: "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..
Ananda, can we get a confirmation of what exactly 10.5.1 is being changed to? Perhaps to "opponent's events" or "events conducted while the opponent is the phasing player"? Or something else?
 
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Allen Doum
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Rulemonger wrote:
Ananda, can we get a confirmation of what exactly 10.5.1 is being changed to? Perhaps to "opponent's events" or "events conducted while the opponent is the phasing player"? Or something else?

Why would you think that the rule is being changed? "Ask not .." doesn't force the player to hold a card that he already has, as Aldritch Ames might if this rule were not there.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Re: Question re: "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..
AllenDoum wrote:
Rulemonger wrote:
Ananda, can we get a confirmation of what exactly 10.5.1 is being changed to? Perhaps to "opponent's events" or "events conducted while the opponent is the phasing player"? Or something else?

Why would you think that the rule is being changed? "Ask not .." doesn't force the player to hold a card that he already has, as Aldritch Ames might if this rule were not there.


Because the rule doesn't say "already has".

The rule says "A player may not be forced to Hold a Scoring Card through
the effects of an Event(s)."

In the example, the US player is being forced to Hold a Scoring Card through the effect of the "Ask Not" event. (That is, prior to the event, the US player is not facing a "must hold Scoring Card" outcome. After the event, he is.)
 
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Allen Doum
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The rule has been interpreted as stating that an event cannot force a player to play another card when he has a scoring card left. That is not the case with "Ask Not ...". If a player draws a scoring card(s) by using "Ask Not ..." he was not in violation of the rule when he played the card.

Since a player is not forced to discard by the event, to discard enough cards to cause this situation is to take a risk that it might cost you the game. You could always leave one non-scoring card in your hand if you wanted to avoid the risk.

To suggest that 10.1.5 prevents the loss puts the game in an unresolvable situation. The player would have a scoring card he "can't hold" with no opportunity to play it. Is the game just supposed to stop?

One of the priciples that I when examing rules this way is: If one interpretation causes an additional question, and second doesn't, than the second is more likely to be correct. To interpret the rules so as to break the game is a waste of time, IMO.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Re: Question re: "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..
That's a good principle, of course, but it doesn't apply here, since there aren't two ways of reading the written rule. The rule as written simply prohibits the result achieved by the play of "Ask Not" and offers no way to resolve the problem.

However, the bit you call an interpretation, if that is the official view, is an adequate answer to the question I had asked (namely: what form has the written rule been changed to), so thanks for that.
 
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Allen Doum
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Rulemonger wrote:
In the example, the US player is being forced to Hold a Scoring Card through the effect of the "Ask Not" event. (That is, prior to the event, the US player is not facing a "must hold Scoring Card" outcome. After the event, he is.)

I would disagree. It is the bad luck of drawing the scoring card, not the effect of "Ask Not ..." that has set up this situation. The result is no different than if had to play a card that reduced DEFCON to 1 or scored VPs for his opponent that resulted in a win.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Re: Question re: "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..
AllenDoum wrote:
Rulemonger wrote:
In the example, the US player is being forced to Hold a Scoring Card through the effect of the "Ask Not" event. (That is, prior to the event, the US player is not facing a "must hold Scoring Card" outcome. After the event, he is.)

I would disagree. It is the bad luck of drawing the scoring card, not the effect of "Ask Not ..." that has set up this situation.


The "luck of drawing a scoring card" is part of the event. The event's effect includes the drawing of the card(s). Drawing the card(s) is not something that happens separately from the event.

Quote:
The result is no different than if had to play a card that reduced DEFCON to 1 or scored VPs for his opponent that resulted in a win.


Yes, obviously the result as Ananda has given it is no different.

The difference is that the rules as written deny events the ability to leave a player to hold a scoring card, whereas they do not deny events the ability to reduce DEFCON reduction or to move the VP marker.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Re: Question re: "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..
BrianMola wrote:
I would still like to know what rule 10.5.1 is there for. The only scenario I can see is if USSR plays Aldrich Ames and the US has a scoring card. USSR can't put it as the last card and force a loss that way.


FYI, I believe it also protects a player who has two cards, one being a scoring card, and one action round left from being victimized by Missile Envy. Although some might call that the victim's fault as well, for holding the Scoring Card too long. Bad luck.
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brian
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Rulemonger wrote:
BrianMola wrote:
I would still like to know what rule 10.5.1 is there for. The only scenario I can see is if USSR plays Aldrich Ames and the US has a scoring card. USSR can't put it as the last card and force a loss that way.


FYI, I believe it also protects a player who has two cards, one being a scoring card, and one action round left from being victimized by Missile Envy. Although some might call that the victim's fault as well, for holding the Scoring Card too long. Bad luck.

That's what I am getting at. Everytime I think I have that rule figured out with some combo, people say no. It seems the only they agree on is the Aldrich Ames - and luckily that was right - becuase I would have lost my first game that way since the situation happened to me!

I think your proposed rule of thumb that if you are not the phasing player but a card is played that forces you to hold a scoring card, then that is not valid for a loss. It would seem to line up with how people tend to view the rule.

Here's another question that may already be addressed. What happens if Bear Trap / Quagmire is played and the effected player has only 2-point (or more) cards and 1 scoring card. The text seems to indicate that you MUST keep plopping down 2-point cards and rolling until successful. If you aren't successful and you still have appropriate cards, it seems you could get into a situation where again you have to hold on to a scoring card though no fault of your own.
 
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Philip Thomas
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You are allowed to play Scoring Cards during Bear Trap/Quagmire if you would otherwise be forced to hold them (I.e on the last action, if you have 1 Scoring Card and are under Bear Trap, you may play the Scoring Card. On the second last action, if you have 2 scoring cards and are under Bear Trap, you may play one of the 2 scoring cards in that action and then the second one in the next action, and so on. You don't roll to see if Bear Trap/Quagmire ends if you've played a Scoring Card- it just doesn't end. Thats an old ruling, not that I have it to hand.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Re: Question re: "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..
BrianMola wrote:
I think your proposed rule of thumb that if you are not the phasing player but a card is played that forces you to hold a scoring card, then that is not valid for a loss. It would seem to line up with how people tend to view the rule.


Well, not quite -- I think that Ananda's ruling means that if the USSR played "Ask Not" and the US player took the option to discard his last card and ended up with a scoring card as above, he'd still get a loss, even though the USSR was the phasing player.
 
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Philip Thomas
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Yes, of course he'd need to discard 2 cards and draw 2 scoring cards, as the USSR play of Ask Not will at the very least leave 1 US action after it.
 
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L. Scott Johnson
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Re: Question re: "Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You..
.. or unless the USSR had a bonus action round, sure.
 
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