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Subject: "or" on Mythos cards: Forced to choose a valid option? rss

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Torben
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If a Mythos card's immediate effect tells us to either lose 2 spells as a group or put a Doom token on the track, can we choose the first option even if we don't have any spells at all and therefore ignore the card's effect? Or do we have to choose the other option if one of them is not valid for us?
 
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mortego
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I can't remember where I read this but if you aren't able to fulfill one of the conditions but you CAN fulfill the other condition, you must fulfill the condition you CAN fill.
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killerjoe1962 wrote:
I can't remember where I read this but if you aren't able to fulfill one of the conditions but you CAN fulfill the other condition, you must fulfill the condition you CAN fill.


That's a rule in Arkham Horror, but it makes sense to apply it to ES and EH as well. Otherwise you're able to take advantage of a "freebie" where one was not intended.
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Dienes wrote:
If a Mythos card's immediate effect tells us to either lose 2 spells as a group or put a Doom token on the track, can we choose the first option even if we don't have any spells at all and therefore ignore the card's effect? Or do we have to choose the other option if one of them is not valid for us?



Of course not. The cost is 2 spells if you cannot pay it you advance doom.
 
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Stephen Sparks
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'Or' means one or the other. If you do not have two spells to lose, the only choice left is advancing the Doom track.

In any game, choosing an option that you cannot and thus would not actually do is cheating unless explicitly called out in the rules as intended.
Say you have two bananas and an orange. I ask you for an apple or banana. Would you give me nothing because you don't have an apple?
 
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spazz451 wrote:
'Or' means one or the other. If you do not have two spells to lose, the only choice left is advancing the Doom track.

This is not a good enough counterpoint. If there was a Mythos card that simply said "each investigator loses 1 common item," but not every investigator has a common item, you wouldn't halt the game because you're unable to fulfill the condition. There needs to be room for interpretation, and with that comes uncertainty, and with that comes questions like OP's.

Quote:
Say you have two bananas and an orange. I ask you for an apple or banana. Would you give me nothing because you don't have an apple?

Again, not a good enough analogy. I could give you one of each, because "or" from a logic standpoint can include both options, and here they are not mutually exclusive.

You may say the logical use of the word "or" differs from the common-parlance use, and I would agree; but this is a game, and game has rules, and sometimes rules that were intended to mean precisely one thing can be up for interpretation as many things.
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Stephen Sparks
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Discard an item you do not have is not the same thing as choose one of two penalties.

In English or does not mean both. This is not a computer program or mathematics. No one is talking about inclusive/exclusive or. No one is making truth tables.

But your right, it is much better to base assumptions on other games than the language the card is written in.

Do what you like. Play it on easy mode if that suits you, it's your game. Make up your own variant if you so desire. Play or as both and take on both penalties because as you said, that's logical.
 
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Here is a similar case from the Unofficial Community FAQ for Elder Sign
Quote:
C: Investigators

Q.1: What happens when you receive First Aid? The Entrance Card says that investigators may heal one stamina OR one sanity for free, while the rule book says that investigators may heal one stamina AND one sanity for free. Which is it?
A: The Entrance Card is the correct version. If investigators wish to receive First Aid without spending any trophies, then they may heal one stamina OR one sanity for free. (H.T. Mudtusk & Grimstax)

This is also confirmed in the official FAQ, bottom right-hand corner of page 2.
If or was meant to be treated as and, then players would likely choose and and there would be no need for a correction.
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spazz451 wrote:
Here is a similar case from the Unofficial Community FAQ for Elder Sign
Quote:
C: Investigators

Q.1: What happens when you receive First Aid? The Entrance Card says that investigators may heal one stamina OR one sanity for free, while the rule book says that investigators may heal one stamina AND one sanity for free. Which is it?
A: The Entrance Card is the correct version. If investigators wish to receive First Aid without spending any trophies, then they may heal one stamina OR one sanity for free. (H.T. Mudtusk & Grimstax)

This is also confirmed in the official FAQ, bottom right-hand corner of page 2.
If or was meant to be treated as and, then players would likely choose and and there would be no need for a correction.


Not at all.

The FAQ here is talking about a misprint. In one place the ability was written with "and", in the other with "or".
I assume in subsequent printings they corrected the rulebook.
 
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Juha Loukaja
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Page 3 of Unseen Forces rules, which is the expansion that added Mythos cards with options, says, under Mythos Insight Icon, bottom part: "The players cannot choose an option that has no effect. For example, if one of the options requires players to discard an Other World card from play and none are in play, the players must choose the other option on that Mythos card."

So yes, you're forced to choose the valid option.
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Ah, thanks for that quote.

However, I just own the base game and here Mythos cards also have different options on them. Or what do you mean when you say those cards were added in the expansion?
 
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None of the base game Mythos cards have options on them as far as I know. They do each have an immediate effect and a lingering effect, but those are not either/or, you do both (one immediately, the other when the card says).
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Dienes wrote:
Ah, thanks for that quote.

However, I just own the base game and here Mythos cards also have different options on them. Or what do you mean when you say those cards were added in the expansion?


When I first got the base game I totally thought that, too. But then someone here told me that the top part of the Mythos card was something that happened immediately or started immediately and the bottom part later, usually the next time the clock strikes midnight.

Example from a Mythos card from the base set:

Strange Sights...

A Monster appears!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

...In the Lurking Shadows

The next time the clock strikes midnight, all investigators lose 2 sanity.

So the top part happens as soon as you draw the Mythos card and then the bottom happens at the very next time midnight happens....no choices.

I hated that!

 
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Yes, I know the difference between the two parts on the cards. But I posted this question originally because a card in the base game said (on the top part only) to either discard two spells or put a token on the Doom track. Seems like options to me?
 
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Merkillinen wrote:
Page 3 of Unseen Forces rules, which is the expansion that added Mythos cards with options, says, under Mythos Insight Icon, bottom part: "The players cannot choose an option that has no effect. For example, if one of the options requires players to discard an Other World card from play and none are in play, the players must choose the other option on that Mythos card."

So yes, you're forced to choose the valid option.


Ok, the O.P. Made it clear to me what he is asking about and this isn't it but it does address the original question about choices. I looked in the base game rule book and I can't seem to find where it says that "choices" are made based off of what players CAN do and not what they can't do. So if the Mythos card says to (example only) "discard a spell or lose 1 sanity" and you don't have any spells, you can't choose the option of discarding spells because the player doesn't have any to discard. (I think I got that right now or at least the gist of it).

For me, personally, when I come across something that I can make a case for "getting away with it" then I immediately know there's a good chance I'm wrong.

The rule book, IMO, just doesn't always do it for me, as a former Magic player, I really like it all spelled out for me and not vague. The updated FAQ is fantastic and really really helps define situations like this but I just wish it was like that in the original rule book. But, that's what BGG forums are for, right!?



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Dienes wrote:
Yes, I know the difference between the two parts on the cards. But I posted this question originally because a card in the base game said (on the top part only) to either discard two spells or put a token on the Doom track. Seems like options to me?

Oh, OK. I didn't remember there were any cards like that in the base game. But I'd say the same principle applies: if you can't do one of the options, you must choose the other.

So in this case, if you don't have two spells to discard, you must add a doom token.
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