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Subject: Looks like a good Hack & Slash rss

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Thibaud Dejardin
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Hello everyone.

I'm a little amazed to read so much negative comments and threats about that game. That's particulary strange because there's so many backers that seems to like it.

Personnally, I think this game looks like something I want: a dungeon Hack and Slash "à la" Diablo. Sure, it's not Descent-like heavy, but it seems to have some intresting decisions to be made. I didn't back Black Plague, because it didn't seem different enought from Zombicide (which is one of my most played games), and I have thrown too much bucks in this game. I don't need the same game in a different setting.
But Massive Darkness seems different enough to justify the buy (well, depends how many add-ons seem "mandatory" to fully enjoy the game).

What I like so far:

-It's light enough to not have to learn the rules each time you play the game. Compared to Sword and Sorcery, it seems a lot less fiddly and you seem to have more control over what is happening, even if a lot of dices are involved.

-The shadow mode looks intresting to get control over the mobs, if some maps are more "open" than corridors (the mission seemed quite "linear").

-I like the mobs with a boss: it is really Diablo like! I really like the fact that ennemies bear and may use the loot you get when you kill them. It, too, look like a good hack and slash video game .

-The roaming monsters seem really powerful, and you may want to avoid them until you reach a better level.

-The transmutation mechanic is clever, I really like it.

-Of course, the fact this is pure cooperative is a definitive "plus". The need for a dungeon master, usually makes the game a bad solo game. That's why I avoid Descent and super dungeon explore.

I have some doubts, though:
I'm not sure I get the usefulness of the magic weapons. We don't know yet if some ennemies may be resistant to physical or magic damages (like berzerk zombies in Zombicide).
And how do really work roaming monsters? Can you simply avoid them or not?
And those levelling trees seem indeed limited. Getting regeneration seems mandatory if you don't want to end quickly dead. Other options to recover (rest?) could be needed.

Conclusions:
For now, there's more things I like than doubts I have.
I wasn't expecting a super-deep dungeon crawling, so maybe that's why I'm not as desapointed as many others here.

I already have gloomhaven and perdition's mouth coming this year, so I'll have enough "pure campaign" games.

I just wanted to make a positive thread, because there's so many negative ones that's as everyone hated this game.
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Kevin John
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Archange227 wrote:
I just wanted to make a positive thread, because there's so many negative ones that's as everyone hated this game.


Hated is a bit strong, lots of us just have doubts, some of which are similar to yours. The rulebook will clarify lots of concerns and a new gameplay video showing some of the campaign/roaming monsters would help as well. Many of us really wanted to like the game but aren't 100% sold, so maybe don't paint us with the 'hate' brush.

On the positive side, I do like some mechanics. The shadow mode could be interesting if they released the actual rules on it. I also really like the transmutation, means there is never a wasted item.
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Mr Suitcase
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I think folks aren't really giving it a chance yet.

I remember seeing the zombicide : BP videos and thinking "that looks dreadfully simple".

Fast forward to now: Favourite game in our group. Because it's just FUN. Whoa. Simple can be fun?

And it's hard to quantify or evaluate whether it has that spark of "Fun" just by watching videos. Or even by knowing the rules. You don't know until you've played.

E.g. I play in chess tournaments. I sit for 4 hours at a time, and often my heart is racing. But would I watch a 4-hour tournament game in a video??! Oh my God no. That would be torture, a la "Clockwork Orange" style. Perhaps an exception in the case of the world championship, but there's got to be flair like commentary added.

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Brian Busha
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I know some people are worried about capping too quickly, but I love the max dice concept. Nice, easy resolution.

I love the loot concept, and a Diablo in boardgame form would be totally welcome!

I don't know that your characters have more control than Swords and Sorcery, but I also think that the complexity level is pretty vast.

I'm hoping to see more good news this week!
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Joe Crane
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Something I have learned about BGG, it's a very small percentage of people who play games. And the people who post tend to be the same people over and over again. 10,000 plus backers and counting, over a million dollars. Don't worry about the few people complaing. I mean if the complaints represent the state of the campaign but this one is already a bigger success then most companies ever hope for. If it was bleeding money they might mean something, but it's still adding backers and money daily. My guess is somewhere around 3 million will be the end. I wish most KS I back had that problem.
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Paul (KS Hates my Wallet)

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Archange227 wrote:
Hello everyone.

I'm a little amazed to read so much negative comments and threats about that game. That's particulary strange because there's so many backers that seems to like it.

Personnally, I think this game looks like something I want: a dungeon Hack and Slash "à la" Diablo. Sure, it's not Descent-like heavy, but it seems to have some intresting decisions to be made. I didn't back Black Plague, because it didn't seem different enought from Zombicide (which is one of my most played games), and I have thrown too much bucks in this game. I don't need the same game in a different setting.
But Massive Darkness seems different enough to justify the buy (well, depends how many add-ons seem "mandatory" to fully enjoy the game).

What I like so far:

-It's light enough to not have to learn the rules each time you play the game. Compared to Sword and Sorcery, it seems a lot less fiddly and you seem to have more control over what is happening, even if a lot of dices are involved.

-The shadow mode looks intresting to get control over the mobs, if some maps are more "open" than corridors (the mission seemed quite "linear").

-I like the mobs with a boss: it is really Diablo like! I really like the fact that ennemies bear and may use the loot you get when you kill them. It, too, look like a good hack and slash video game .

-The roaming monsters seem really powerful, and you may want to avoid them until you reach a better level.

-The transmutation mechanic is clever, I really like it.

-Of course, the fact this is pure cooperative is a definitive "plus". The need for a dungeon master, usually makes the game a bad solo game. That's why I avoid Descent and super dungeon explore.

I have some doubts, though:
I'm not sure I get the usefulness of the magic weapons. We don't know yet if some ennemies may be resistant to physical or magic damages (like berzerk zombies in Zombicide).
And how do really work roaming monsters? Can you simply avoid them or not?
And those levelling trees seem indeed limited. Getting regeneration seems mandatory if you don't want to end quickly dead. Other options to recover (rest?) could be needed.

Conclusions:
For now, there's more things I like than doubts I have.
I wasn't expecting a super-deep dungeon crawling, so maybe that's why I'm not as desapointed as many others here.

I already have gloomhaven and perdition's mouth coming this year, so I'll have enough "pure campaign" games.

I just wanted to make a positive thread, because there's so many negative ones that's as everyone hated this game.

Great post. This is exactly why I backed it. I wanted a game with a simpler mechanic to make an easy play through with anyone (including those who are not more adept at board games/rpgs and dice games). This game hit that bar. What simple systems lose in complex play, they make up for in casual fun. I like the diablo feel.

The system also appears simple enough for me to add in house rules without a lot of difficulty. I've always done this with board games (Zombicide, D&D games, etc). I didn't get ZBP for the same reason you didnt.. I like zombicide, and I already have it.

I'm hoping there are some other things to broaden gameplay options (more diversity in combat besides 'hit' or 'be hit'), but even without it i'm not worried because those are easily added.
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Terence Lee
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This looks pretty good for me. I like it kept simple because I don't get to play my boardgames too often, so I don't want to read a rulebook and figure out how to play just for 1 game and then have to remember everything 1-2 months later. Like the OP's title, "good hack & slash" - this is what is attractive to me along with the cool minis that CMON puts out.

I also backed Sword & Sorcery and am now thinking about unloading that kickstarter and replacing it with this one.
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I like that in one scenario you go from level 1 to level 5 so you have progression in each game, not just if you play multiple times with the same people.

It also makes that you can envoy all the content without the obligation of playing a predefined number of games. If you want to battle the iron golem, just put it in the deck and it can spawn, there's no situation like "this monster is cool but he's level 4 so we can't use him before the 4th scenario or he would destroy us".
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I have backed this game and plan to remain a backer. I have no expectation that it will be a perfect game. I expect it will wok and that I will be able to play some fun games with my son and or some of my friends.
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R.P. Kraul
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MD looks very promising, so I don't understand the complaints. MD looks like a lighter DC with some interesting mechanics and some RPG elements. Maybe CMON fans were hoping for a heavier game, but what game in their catalogue implies that they make heavier games?
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John
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Drpretorios wrote:
MD looks very promising, so I don't understand the complaints. MD looks like a lighter DC with some interesting mechanics and some RPG elements. Maybe CMON fans were hoping for a heavier game, but what game in their catalogue implies that they make heavier games?


I cannot speak for anyone but myself but I was hoping for more of an actual campaign and/or classes that stood apart. To me a dungeon crawler has progression of character and equipment from one mission to the next. With resets of equipment between levels and most of the upgrades to skills being +1 die or +1 to the results this does not feel like a campaign to me. I'd rather just throw down a session of Z:BP.

When they said it had a campaign I was expecting more.
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aron craig
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whiskemuscles wrote:
With resets of equipment between levels and most of the upgrades to skills being +1 die or +1 to the results this does not feel like a campaign to me. I'd rather just throw down a session of Z:BP.

When they said it had a campaign I was expecting more.


The EQ doesn't bother me so much, but I am definitely concerned by the lack of utility/variety type skills in what we're seeing so far. If all the skills are +1 to X it could hit the replayability really hard.
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Ryan Caputo
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Yes class with more distinct variation, and a little more tactical depth. Not heavy
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Max Maloney
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I'm not really that worried about the classes. They do have a generic feel, but having a couple small bonuses to one type of attack makes a big difference in gameplay.

What concerns me is that the gameplay doesn't look interesting. Because objectives are always sequential and because monsters spawn on objective points, it seems as if the game will always be linear. Even when the map doesn't look linear, you are still following a set path with monsters spawning ahead of you on that path.

Seemingly, you just kill in a straight line until you hit a checkpoint and repeat.

Zombicide's more open layout seems much more interesting, with less constrained order of exploration, spawns coming from every side and the real possibility of avoiding conflict as a viable tactic.
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trevor

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I was pumped about this but have soured significantly since I've seen it is just two things.....hack....and slash.


That said, I'm still considering going in on it because....damn...those minis are amazing looking
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François Mahieu
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It's Gauntlets basically.
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Ricky W
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It seems like a good light game, but 3 things disturb me the most.

CONTRA

- reset of items after quest
although can be sufficient explained by having to hand them to a monarch

- reset of skills
I can only use a Level 3 skill when I'm in section 3, although I have spent the xp already in a previous quest? That's a tough one!

- skill variety over different classes
the skills in the different classes trees are too similar, so I don't see much valuable replayablity with another class. And I'm a very big fan of trying different play styles.


What I like

PRO

- shadow mode mechanic

- slashing through hordes of foes,
the already mentioned diablo effect

- bosses use loot items,

- lightweight rules
so far, seems like a great gateway game to dungeon crawlers


I already backed Sword and Sorcery as a heavier dungeon crawler and I know it is THE game I was waiting for, since I could examine the rules and even test it in a tabletopia demo.

And I already backed Orcs must die, which admittedly is more like tower defense/MOBA on a board, but it does a great job as a lightweight fantasy hack and slash game.


That summed up I hope to be able to read the MD rulebook in near future and then I will decide if I give up my EB...

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carraway0877 wrote:
- reset of skills
I can only use a Level 3 skill when I'm in section 3, although I have spent the xp already in a previous quest? That's a tough one!


Most skills you actually can use at level one, it will just get stronger when you progress.

The real power in subsequent missions comes from having multiple skills unlocked at level 1 already. This makes you crazy powerful compared to when you start fresh.

Seems genius to me

That being said, more differences in the trees would indeed be nice.
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Ricky W
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cityofsolitude wrote:
Most skills you actually can use at level one, it will just get stronger when you progress.
The real power in subsequent missions comes from having multiple skills unlocked at level 1 already. This makes you crazy powerful compared to when you start fresh.


Good point. You kind of build up adrenaline and/or self confidence as you push your way through the dungeon... Nice explanation to soothe my mind about this issue. cool

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Joshua N
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I actually want this because it's lighter. I kickstarted Gloomhaven, which I'm sure will be an awesome and deep dungeon crawler. I want this as an alternative game that I can set up and play a quick game of.
 
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One nice thing about the class system is that even if the official classes like variety, it's possible to create new ones rather easily.
 
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Lars petersen
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Yah, it looks like it is going to be a games that fit right up my ally.

As a family man with 3 small kids under the age of 5, I don't have much time to play a lot of games. This look like it can be fun for a evening with friends and beer and smalltalk.

If i wanted to play a heavy dungeon crawler, i would go back to AD&D 2th edition, which i play a lot of in my youth.

So far i haven't see something i don't like or can make a house rule about.

Plus i look forward to paint the figures a little bit at the time, when the kids and wife is asleep

Most of my friends love the different versions of Zombicide.

I have found that most of the games from CMoN fit my gaming style and with The Others :7 Sin, Rum & bones:second tide and the rest of Z.BP coming any day now i will be more busy then a bear on a honeyraid for a while.

Maybe i should stop backing games for a while...
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Chris Cullen
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boyerdk wrote:

[some family stuff]
Maybe i should stop backing games for a while...


Might as well try and stop breathing...

I'm a bit on the fence over backing this, but your other comments (that I've not quoted) really strike a chord with me, so you've helped me decide to back (more than likely).

I have a wife who travels a lot for work and two kids, so I don't have a lot of time to play games; when I do I'm usually tired. So playing something light, fun and quick if/when I'm not being pestered by wife and kids would perfect.

I already have Mage Knight if I want to spend three hours agonising over every decision; chucking dice and mashing through hoards of monsters (a la Diablo) should be a fun diversion.

Plus those minis look pretty fun to paint, without me having to learn to paint chibi-style (I've been painting WH40K for 20+ years, and firmly stuck in my ways).
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Exo Desta wrote:
cityofsolitude wrote:
carraway0877 wrote:
- reset of skills
I can only use a Level 3 skill when I'm in section 3, although I have spent the xp already in a previous quest? That's a tough one!


Most skills you actually can use at level one, it will just get stronger when you progress.

The real power in subsequent missions comes from having multiple skills unlocked at level 1 already. This makes you crazy powerful compared to when you start fresh.

Seems genius to me

That being said, more differences in the trees would indeed be nice.

Good point. Plus I think I'll be using a variant to sort of let each Hero show flashes of their already unlocked Skills at the later levels.

We just need to introduce Epic Moment tokens, or somesuch.

-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Epic Moment Tokens: Heroes may use one of these tokens during each turn to use any Unlocked Skill, regardless of their current level.

Gaining EM Tokens: Each Hero gains one EM Token at the beginning of the game. Also, anytime a Hero defeats a Boss, roll a d6; on a 3+, they gain an EM Token.
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-


Or something simple and easy like that. Just let them use their later-level-unlocked-skills occasionally in the early going. This might present some balance issues -- if so, we just need to increase the difficulty a bit. Maybe add an extra Roaming Monster to start the game, but put him at the furthest point in the dungeon so that it takes him longer to get to you guys than usual (or something.. need that ruleset!).


That is something I might get behind!

You could also offer access to already unlocked higher-level skills in the same (or a similar) way you execute the signature skill. I.e., pay some amount of XP to use the unlocked higher-level version.

Thereby it becomes a trade-off with progression, again, same as with the signature skill.

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