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AT-43 Initiation Set: Operation Damocles» Forums » General

Subject: Had my hands on it.. but the price? Yikes!(?) rss

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Gene Vogel
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Saw this at Misty Mountain Games in Burnsville, Minnesota and *almost* bought this for my son as a gift. However, once I looked at the contents, rechecked the price, then looked at the Battlelore box that I initially was going to buy for him, I thought that this may be a bit over-priced, especially when I can easily get more for my money buying him (or myself for that matter) more Heroscape.

Anyone else think that the pricing is out of line? I took a look at one of the 'attachment' boxes and you get 6 figures and 8 cards for $30?! Is that correct? Ouch. The figs looked nice and all, but damn for that price more minis or extras would be in order.

So, am I right that this is over-priced, or am I behind the times?
 
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Champion Eternal
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You are right-this is overpriced. One pays a lot for the air in the big box. I tried AT-43 at a demo. It is very much like WH40K. I did not buy it.
 
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Pat R
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I can't really say it's overpriced. Compare it to 40k (painted). Compare the cost of the terrain provided in a ready to use state. What would it cost to recreate? Anyway, certainly one would have to put a cost on ones time as well. *IF* the playing and not the painting are your thing, this game would be very very cheap when compared to the time cost to assemble and paint a like amount of troops in the 40k line.
Anyway, I play other games that do require painting. I enjoy it, but I gotta say, having something I can just dig in and enjoy without a month or two of prep is refreshing. I despise all things GWS at this point, so this nicely replaces 40k for me and I will stick with Warmachine for my modeling fix.
 
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Jay Adan
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The pricing is quite good, all things considered.

You have to put it into context. This is a miniatures game, not a board game. Comparing it along those lines it comes out pretty favorably.

Let's use Warhammer 40K as an example:

The Battle for Macragge is a good comparison piece as that's the 40K starter box that serves the same purpose as the AT-43 starter box.

The Battle for Macragge comes with 10 Space Marines and 24 Tyranid-related minaitures along with terrain, dice, markers, rules, etc. Price is $45.

AT-43 provides you with 17 troop figures (split almost evenly between the two factions but also includes to LARGE strider figures. That brings the figure total to 19, but when you take size into comparison it's seem at least roughly equivalent to the BFM minis in quantity. You also get terrain pieces, rules, dice, a measuring tape etc.

On the face of it, stopping with this description of the two sets it would seem like the AT-43 set isn't priced competitively. Of course, this isn't really a fair comparison because we haven't taken into account the fact that the AT-43 game is ready to play right out of the box. Everything is assembled and painted. In fact the quality for the pre-paints is pretty amazing. Certainly better than the average painter could do in a short period of time. The vehicle paint jobs are even better than the troops.

In order to bring the BFM set up to that level of preparedness you will also need to buy paint. Let's assume you just get the basic BFM paint set. That's going to set you back another $20 (okay, you don't HAVE to buy that set, but it's a reasonable example). That gives you a brush, the basic paints that you need to do the colors on the box. If you're a good painter you could probably get your miniatures up the the AT-43 quality level with just this set (with appropriate amounts of color mixing to get the subtler shades). Anyway, your BFM purchase is now up to $65. Wait, you can't start painting until you assemble. That means a knife (or clippers) and some glue. If you buy this stuff from GW then you're probably looking at another $20. But let's say you grab the regular model glue and an Xacto knife. That's probably only going to set you back another $5. Now you're up to $70. Still looks good for BFM though. You've saved $10!

Oh wait.. what's your time worth?

That's right. Once you have all of your supplies you're going to be spending a lot of time with those minis getting them ready to play. You could just put them together and not paint them, but to my mind that's missing the point of miniature gaming.

In any case, I'm not a miniature painting detractor. In fact, I love the hobby. Part of the reason that I love miniature gaming is because I love to paint. I like to think that I'm pretty good at it too. So, I don't really mind spending the time to work on them and get them ready for battle. At the same time, I'm finding AT-43 pretty compelling. It's a solid game, the miniatures are nice, the paint jobs don't offend my miniature-painter sensibilities and I can play with what I buy immediately. Later, if I want to repaint them, touch them up, kitbash them, whatever.. I can. I just found out that the FireToad model actually as a cockpit interior! You need to use a hobby-knife to deglue the cockpit door but once you do there's something in there to work with if you want to super-detail the model. That's just amazing. So what Rackham has done has removed the main barrier to miniature gaming (the painting) without abandoning the painters. I find that pretty cool.

Wow.. that went on longer than I planned.
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Gene Vogel
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One thing with comparing it to WH:40K is that the miniatures are not NEARLY as detailed as the 40K ones are. Also, this would be a little more in line with the Axis and Allies, Star Wars Minis, HeroScape line of miniature games, wouldn't it?

I understand that rules and options-wise, it's up to par with 40K (from what I've heard) but aren't they looking for the people who play these other, cheaper miniatures games with the pre-painted, less-detailed minis that are almost the same as HeroScape and Dungeons & Dragons?

I like the look of the game, but the minis are a little cheap looking. And another thing about painting minis is that instead of buying all of the materials, you can send them off to be painted, though I am not sure what that'd cost a guy or gal. But even if you have to purchase paints, they do go a long way and can cover quite a lot of figures, and that would bring the cost-per-piece down considerably, other than ones time. Though some people have FAR too much time on their hands, and I for one am jealous of that...

So I see that there are points for both the "over-priced" and "priced-right" crowds, but still for me I think that they've made a mistake pricing the game so high. <----- (Stating personal opinion...)
 
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Jay Adan
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GVogel wrote:
One thing with comparing it to WH:40K is that the miniatures are not NEARLY as detailed as the 40K ones are. Also, this would be a little more in line with the Axis and Allies, Star Wars Minis, HeroScape line of miniature games, wouldn't it?


I suppose if you compare 40K's most detailed and elaborate miniatures with the equivalent AT-43 miniature then you're probably correct. On the average though, they stack up nicely.

GVogel wrote:

I understand that rules and options-wise, it's up to par with 40K (from what I've heard) but aren't they looking for the people who play these other, cheaper miniatures games with the pre-painted, less-detailed minis that are almost the same as HeroScape and Dungeons & Dragons?


The intent of pre-painted miniatures is to remove the barrier to entry that traditional miniature games have. That is, the building and painting of miniatures. Each of these games would seem to have a different target audience though. HeroScape was aimed at a younger audience than the Clix games. The Clix games seem to be more targeted at the collector. D&D minis for fantasy fans and D&D players. The problem that these games have had is that they pretty much abandon the player who has as much interest in modeling as gaming (like myself). It's clear that Rackham has not done this -- at least as much.

GVogel wrote:

I like the look of the game, but the minis are a little cheap looking. And another thing about painting minis is that instead of buying all of the materials, you can send them off to be painted, though I am not sure what that'd cost a guy or gal. But even if you have to purchase paints, they do go a long way and can cover quite a lot of figures, and that would bring the cost-per-piece down considerably, other than ones time. Though some people have FAR too much time on their hands, and I for one am jealous of that...


I love to paint so I'll find time to do it, but I've also painted professionally for others so I'm very aware of what my time is worth.

GVogel wrote:

So I see that there are points for both the "over-priced" and "priced-right" crowds, but still for me I think that they've made a mistake pricing the game so high. <----- (Stating personal opinion...)


Hey, we're all just sharing our opinions here.

People claim that GW miniature games are overpriced as well. To that I say, it's all about what your hobbies are worth.
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Gene Vogel
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Ok, just got some info on the new Mutant Chronicles Collectible Miniatures Game from Fantasy Flight Games ( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/22826 ) and they have a high price point on that one; the figs are 54mm in size and look to have nice paint jobs... Already, there is an uproar on the price on the MC:CMG Yahoo Group:
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/MutantChroniclesMiniatur...

I know that AT-43 isn't collectible, but maybe in the world of pre-painted miniatures the prices are going to continue to rise ala WotC's line of pre-painted figs? (Star Wars, D&D.)

I guess that AT-43's price point isn't so bad afterall...
 
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The pricing is comperable to both 40k and War Machine - which are AT-43s competitors.
The boxed set has a lot of little things in it that truly make it "ready to play, right out of the box" - dice, measuring tape, terrain (prepainted), miniatures (pre-assembled and prepainted)...
The expansion boxes are similar in price to their competitors, at $30 to $40 each. The starter box comes with the equivalent of five regular boxes - so is "value priced" for the range.
Yes there is a lot of excess packaging - but Rackham has done a very good job of ensuring that customers can check out the paint jobs before buying (I personally will compare several boxes of AT-43 and select the ones that are painted a bit better). This is why there is so much extra space in the packages, and why the box fronts are clear.

Like all miniatures games, AT-43 is expensive. However, it is not overpriced when compared to other games of the same type.
 
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tom mclain
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I am wavering on the borderline (towards) buying this game. Yes, the price is slightly higher than I would care to pay for a startup game for my taste, but i'll risk boring you with my background in gaming in the hopes that others may care to share their opinion as I hope there are others with my particular gaming tastes.
I for one really like "self-contained" board games. It does not bother me to shell out 50 bucks for a good quality game from AH or FF if it has good components ,nice artwork, and decent mini's. I also have no problem handing over my hard earned cash for rare fav's like Space Hulk since I know that it is a rare and excellent game that will be a nice addition to my collection.
Having said that, although I love the Warhammer 40K universe, I am no painter. I wish to God that I was, but simply do not have the patience for it. Therefore I have never got into the tabletop game realm as I don't have the time or interest in the hours and hours it takes to prime, sculpt, paint and finish dozens of armies before playing the actual game... really, who wants to play a cool game in a rich universe with a bunch of stark grey pieces?
So, I am intrigued by this game even with the somewhat generic Starship Trooper motif. I'm sure it is no Terminator marine standoff like in warhammer, but the very nicely painted (to me) figures that look like they can be played 2 player (which I prefer) right out of the box seems to me a fair if high price to someone who mainly plays games where you are not accustomed to buying hundreds of dollars of supporting armies.
 
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Pete R.
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I'm really have a hard time pulling the trigger on this game. For one thing, the options for sci-fi miniature games are growing everyday it seems like. The idea of spending $100 (Damocles & Full Rulebook) and then finding out another similar game not yet released is better can be a hard thing. But, that's the 'game' we play every day. I'm more excited about creating terrain and an sci-fi industrial complex for this game and I may create that board before even buying the game! But, I'm really leaning toward picking this game up. I'm on the ledge...knowing no one escapes war!

{I had to throw in their tag line - I'm visiting the site just about everyday!)
 
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Mike zebrowski
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The Initiation Set, by itself, it not a very good game.

It comes with a introductory rulebook that presents 5 or 6 scenarioes that are designed to teach you most of the game. It takes 2 to 3 hours to go through the entire rulebook, playing out all of the missions. When you get to the end, you'll be asking "now what"? Only the last mission is even slightly replayable.

Fortunately, AT-43 has pretty good web-support. On the AT-43 web site, you can get the full rules (sans army building and fluff) as well as a series of scenarioes. The scenarioes all use the Initiation set. For the scenarioes that need more figures, it tells you exactly which unit boxes you'll need for the mission.

It is a good way to ease into the hobby without being overwhelmed by the choices available.

Scenarioes: http://www.at-43.com/support_operation_damocles.php?lg=EN
Rules: http://www.at-43.com/pdf_multi/game_rules.pdf
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gary rembo
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Also dont forget you get the full warhammer 40k rule book with macragge {With out the fluff}. For AT-43 you ned to buy this seperately {another 20 quid odd}. I got the base set at a good price but cannot see myself buying large armies. The figures are quite costly. I wish to point out I say "costly" NOT "expensive" they are outstanding figures and to have them painted to this standard would cost you a lot more. Just price wise a lot of money to spend to get a good size army together. Macragge allows you to play out of the box after just putting the models together and is in my opinion an outstanding intro to 40k and great value for money. Painting up the figures has always been a big part of warhammer and will allow you to personalise your army but if you hate paintingthink of AT-43 as paying a pro painter £3 a figure to paint them up.
 
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gary rembo
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devilHeres a naughty but nice idea. Just buy the main rule book and once you understand how the various stats work use your existing figures from any similar games and create your own stats sheets. Then if you get truly hooked start collecting the AT-43 stuff.
 
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Nathaniel GOUSSET
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Err, am I wrong but isn't all thoses painted decor that come with AT-43 just a plain old stupid grey container ?

Definitely the worst thing that come in the lot, and a great insighter that you ARE paying a lot more than you should have !!!
 
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Mike zebrowski
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IKerensky wrote:
Err, am I wrong but isn't all thoses painted decor that come with AT-43 just a plain old stupid grey container ?


No. The Initiation set comes with 1 container, 2 nano-generators(they look like spotlights), and 6 baracades.

Besides, the containers just rock! I want more of them.

Quote:
Definitely the worst thing that come in the lot, and a great insighter that you ARE paying a lot more than you should have !!!


The Initation box set is a very good deal. If you bought everything seperately, it would cost 125 Euro while the Initation box is 60 Euro.

Compared to other game lines, the price is about the same. A Tyranid Carnifex runs $45 for a single model and a Wraith Goligoth runs $40. Both are about the same size. A pack of 3 Tyranid Warriors runs $35 while a pack of 3 TacArms runs $30.

Mike Z
 
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IKerensky wrote:
Err, am I wrong but isn't all thoses painted decor that come with AT-43 just a plain old stupid grey container ?

Definitely the worst thing that come in the lot, and a great insighter that you ARE paying a lot more than you should have !!!


I thought the shipping containers were a brilliant touch. While they are not super detailed, they are inexpensive.

AT-43 also has a great bunker at $35 that I have seen on many another 28mm sci-fi gaming table.
 
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Vangelis Bagiartakis
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Mike Zebrowski wrote:
The Initation box set is a very good deal. If you bought everything seperately, it would cost 125 Euro while the Initation box is 60 Euro.


IF the price was 60 euro it would be a decent deal (wouldn't call it a very good one though). However, where I live (Greece) Operation Damocles costs around 90€ yuk Even if I try to buy it online, due to its size I'm going to pay way too much on shipping so there won't be much difference.

Also, the fact that it is slightly cheaper than Warhammer doesn't mean it isn't costly. Warhammer too costs a lot of money to get into + all the work you have to do (painting, assembling etc).

What I don't get is why people always claim the price is ok due to the figs being pre-painted. You know, it's not the first game to have pre-painted components. Other companies do it all the time and yet don't charge you that high. I know that they do a very nice job at Racham with theirs, however I still don't think this justifies the high price. The problem is that when people think of it they instantly compare it to Warhammer and make assumptions based to that. If there wasn't any GW product out there and you saw this for the first time, I don't think you would call this price reasonable... (Of course I tend to go the complete other way, comparing it to Heroscape which is produced in larger quantities and is considerably cheaper)

Lastly, since all other miniature games cost more or less the same, wouldn't it be a great opportunity for Racham to have their products at a lower price to attract more customers? The way it is now, people will probably choose to play Warhammer due to more players being available...
 
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R S
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My gaming buddies and I popped for AT-43 recently. We have played NOTHING ELSE in 3 weeks!!!!

Damn this game for giving me good value for my $$, fun gameplay, and cool looking models (with lots of moving pieces on my UNA figs)! I miss playing Descent, Carc, GoT, etc etc....

Stupid Therian armies trying to beat up my UNA! And don't even get me started on the fact that ALL of my buddies are buying the freaking Armored Gorillas!!!!

I wanted to be the only one playing gorillas!!!!!
 
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