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Subject: Images Images and more Images! rss

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Mark Beyak
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So, I'm trying to GeekMod some images and I come across yet another image for Carcassone. It's the river tiles sheet unpunched. I am trying to be a "good Geek" so I look through all the other images to make sure this isn't a duplicate. Carcassone has 396 images already! I have to scan through all these just to find a possible duplicate? OK, so I do and on the last page of images I do find another unpunched sheet of the River Tiles.

It occured to me that for one geek penny, or a chance at a geek dime, that was an awful lot of work. I wondered then what do other GeekMods do? The temptation to just hit the approve and continue on was great. (I didn't) but I wondered as I was flipping through all those pages of Carcassone images if others just approve and move on. I suspect so. Does this then tend to fill the database with too much redundant data? Some of the images are so similar the differences are immaterial. Carcassone is not the only game with this issue either.

I think someway of sorting through all those images and actually deleting the redundant ones would be beneficial to the entire site. Perhaps putting a cap on the number of images for a game? But, it seems clear to me that if somebody or somebodies do not cull the collection of images we will be swamped with an overwhelming quantity of images for some of those most popular games.

And I don't think that's a good thing.

So, am I wrong here? What are some of the issues that need to be considered when determining which images to chuck? Who should be responsible for the culling? GeekMods? Admins?

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Tim Mossman
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I started up a thread on that subject the other night - trying to gather User ideas on how such a system would work. Anything you've got would be appreciated:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/158833
 
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Brian Morris
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There's a lot of wonky stuff going on with image modding. Here's a nice image that got approved yesterday.



Nice picture without question....however please tell me why we needed that image when we already had these?



Perhaps some games need to be closed in terms of image submissions or perhaps some older not as good images should be deleted. Here are some image counts for some games. Do these games really need more images in the database?

Settlers of Catan: 384
Heroscape master set: 575
Carcassonne:375
Powergrid 190
Twilight Imperium: 248
Puerto Rico: 181
War of the Ring: 431
Decent: 278

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Aaron Tubb
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I agree that games like Heroscape and War of the Ring have many pictures that don't add anything useful to the database. I don't know if limiting the number of pictures allowed for a game is the right answer, though. If you did that, you may still have many pointless pictures, and once the limit has been reached, not even the occasional useful picture could be approved. I think a way to replace, remove, or archive away obsolete pictures would be ideal.

I agree with the approval of that newer Titan image, since it is an improvement over all of the past box cover pictures. I believe that images that are better than the existing ones are welcome.
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andreo
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dipdragon wrote:
 


In this case I don't mind having all three of them in the gallery. You could argue that the second and third image are not actually 'related' to the game, however, instead of deleting these images I would prefer if they were only flagged as 'prototype'.

It's (almost) the same with all those box shots of different editions/print runs/languages/publishers. I really like those.
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Chris Johnson
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mrbeankc wrote:
There's a lot of wonky stuff going on with image modding. Here's a nice image that got approved yesterday.





Oh, for crying out loud. Mark this modder down as having said Decline; Similar. angry

Much as it's a handy way to get GG, the image modding system needs some serious work. If I spend 10 minutes confirming that a huge pile of images submitted by the one person are all ripped from an official website, almost certainly without permission, I should be able to get them canned. But instead, the current system pretty much lets through anything that looks shiney.

Great for submitters, pointless for the community.

Meanwhile, session reports, which take a long time to do right, rarely score more than 1.5GG.

I think, at the very least, the reward for submitting photos should be inversely proportionate to the number of photos that game already has.

Something like:

Reward = (300 - NumberOfPhotos)/250
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Mark Beyak
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IronMoss wrote:
I started up a thread on that subject the other night - trying to gather User ideas on how such a system would work. Anything you've got would be appreciated:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/158833


Yes, you did! I didn't see your thread. You brought up some good ideas on that thread and started the discussion I had hoped would start somewhere. It would be nice if we could "stitch" or combine these threads together. Now I feel like I have contributed to redundancy on BGG. blush

There are two main lines this discussion can take. How to cull the excess of images and how to put a finger in the dike, so to speak.

One of my points that I feel I could have made more forcefully was that the current geekmodding system encourages mod approval for redundant or irrelevant images to games with large gallerys. I don't have "The" solution I just wanted some discussion to hopefully generate that solution.

I think user Krisjohn's idea above has a lot of merit and it or some variation would go a long way towards solving the problem.
 
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Marc P
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Another problem with the glut of images is that some of the better ones get buried in the morass of, "...and here's this card, and this card and this card, and this set of three cards, and this macro of a wooden cube, and here's that same cube from a different angle...". To the people who do this and upload 50 images a day like this, I have to say that it's kind of sad.

I work in biological research, and there's a term for researchers who take a nice series of experiments and, rather than publish them all as a single work in a top quality journal to tell a great story, tend to publish it piecemeal in as many journals as possible, often repeating the same hypothesis in many tiny papers. It's called salami science. We have the same problem here, in that no one is really well served by having every angle of every component recorded, but that is precisely what the system encourages. One image of a set of cards from the game is much more useful than 12 images of individual cards. But just because the system allows for abuse doesn't mean that the abuse is justified.

I don't have any problem with more images of people playing the games, however. Often that's the only way you get to put a face to the username, plus it's a great selling point for the game to show folks having a great time playing it. So much the better if you can describe an interesting point about the game play by referring to a game in progress.

And I do understand that some of the macro photography approaches amateur art, and I see the value in trying to create iconic images for games. I don't really know how to get around the facts, however, that not everyone with a good camera takes interesting pictures, or that not every component lends itself to this practice.

Aren't I the rambly one today?
 
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Tim Mossman
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Beyak wrote:
There are two main lines this discussion can take. How to cull the excess of images and how to put a finger in the dike, so to speak.


You kind of nailed the issue here - its the overall management of images (from initial submission and acceptance to their long-term use or final disposition), not just one piece of the system. The key "big picture" thoughts that I try to keep in mind:

- No matter what the initial image mod system is, there is absolutely no way to make it "perfect". [Note: I have a Reliability Engineering degree, so I can say with some authority that even a good system involving humans has reliability limitations, as humans tend to have low throughput and high failure rates.] A bad or redundant image will occasionally get by. A decent image will get rejected periodically. The best we can hope for is a system that achieves a reasonable balance between the two. I previously tried to capture some ways to help that balance here (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/152930). I personally would rather the system err on the side of letting an extra image in, rather than be slanted to reject one more decent image - however, others have different (and perfectly valid) reasons for slanting the other way.

- Images are coming into the geek at a fantastic rate. I'm sure a lot of this has to do with BGG having more Users and more Users having access to better digital cameras. I crafted a graph of image submission data a little bit ago and posted it in the following thread (http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/150787). Many more images have been submitted in a very short time since then.

- Without an image "retirement" or archiving system, the image system is strictly a one-way street right now (stuff comes in, but rarely does anything leave). One could argue the same of session reports and game reviews, but they are submitted at a much lower rate and thus aren't perceived as overwhelming the senses. I want to believe that (if the admins so desire - since they pay for the storage), a well-thought out image retirement / archiving system could be crafted - which is why the thread referenced above got posted.
 
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