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Subject: early rules yay rss

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ace hawkster
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http://resources.cmon.com/MD-Rulebook-WIP.pdf
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Ryan Caputo
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Wow 44 pages (picture heavy though)
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I really like dungeon crawls, but this one looks so incredibly generic and uninteresting. Very little narrative, the abilities are all similar and extremely simple. I can't imagine this game being anything but the most boring parts of Descent, with none of the interesting decisions and flavor.

I *want* to like it- because the mini's look great, but it looks really inferior (gameplay wise) to my other dungeon crawls.
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Brian Busha
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I think it just comes down to expectations.

I don't think this is aiming to be anything more than a mow down and kill tons of fantasy guys game. That's fine, it's Diablo!

Some people want more depth, and there are games that do that too. Swords and Sorcery looks awesome and a more deeper experience. That comes at a cost, which are rules.

Different strokes for different folks. I don't have a generic dice chucker, and this looks straight up my alley
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Brian C
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Zaphod wrote:
I really like dungeon crawls, but this one looks so incredibly generic and uninteresting. Very little narrative, the abilities are all similar and extremely simple. I can't imagine this game being anything but the most boring parts of Descent, with none of the interesting decisions and flavor.

I *want* to like it- because the mini's look great, but it looks really inferior (gameplay wise) to my other dungeon crawls.

Descent is more of Squad-based Objective Grab, though, where character progression comes from completing quests. MD wants to take on the grindy side of dungeon crawls, where your progression comes from killing enemies and looting their fallen corpses.

I feel like they are almost in two different genres.

I agree that MD could use some more narrative elements though (a much thicker Event deck would be nice).
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Nikolaj Thomsen
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Diablo where you discard your loot after each quest/run. Meh....
 
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Peter Baker
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Necksnappa wrote:
Diablo where you discard your loot after each quest/run. Meh....


Not the case in the Story Mode announced
 
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Jason
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Gutrix wrote:
I don't think this is aiming to be anything more than a mow down and kill tons of fantasy guys game. That's fine, it's Diablo!

Diablo where all the classes play about the same.
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Brian Busha
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VaultBoy wrote:
Gutrix wrote:
I don't think this is aiming to be anything more than a mow down and kill tons of fantasy guys game. That's fine, it's Diablo!

Diablo where all the classes play about the same.


Diablo 1 then? I mean, minus initial stats, not a whole lot of difference, particularly at higher levels.

But still, could have drawn a more generic parallel... an ARPG in Board Game form!

I dunno, seems apt to me.
 
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Ricky W
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VaultBoy wrote:
Gutrix wrote:
I don't think this is aiming to be anything more than a mow down and kill tons of fantasy guys game. That's fine, it's Diablo!

Diablo where all the classes play about the same.

No. If you inspect the class pads (here) they can be played very differently.

- melee
- defensive
- agile
- ranged far (archer)
- ranged medium (magic)
- shadow user far
- shadow user melee
...


You can even specialize ONE class quite variable. If you take for example the Shadow Barbarian. You can make him

++ devastating (+melee, +wounds)
++ very agile (charge, +move, stun)
+ ranged supporter (ranged reroll)
+ shadow user
+ a bit tanky (health, stun)


The only exception at the moment are the two magic user classes (Battle Wizard and Sorcerer). They seem really too similar.

Common: many magic boosts, teleport
BW: melee, defense
S: shadow usage

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Nikolaj Thomsen
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Digimortal wrote:
Necksnappa wrote:
Diablo where you discard your loot after each quest/run. Meh....


Not the case in the Story Mode announced


Sounds great. Link?
 
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Ricky W
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Necksnappa wrote:
Digimortal wrote:
Necksnappa wrote:
Diablo where you discard your loot after each quest/run. Meh....


Not the case in the Story Mode announced


Sounds great. Link?


Link!

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Julien Le Jeune
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Not convinced by the rules, at all.

And that's from a huge fan of Zombicide.
 
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Michael D. Kelley
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I don't think the Diablo connection is apt. The monsters and the heroes in MD feel too samey, and the monster AI is ultra-simplistic. As mentioned above, Diablo II and III have fantastic differences between heroes, and enemies attack in different ways, some pestering you from far away, others charging in, others boosting enemies around you.

A better comparison for MD is Gauntlet. You all deal damage with little variation except for your range. The mobs don't really add anything except keeping track of HP, similar to the spawn generators you have to mow through guys to destroy. And if you don't kill things quickly enough, the whole game slows down as the number of enemies overwhelms what the screen/tiles can hold

Some people love Gauntlet, of course, and people will love the simple slashing fun of MD. But seeing this caused me to reevaluate Swords and Sorcery, and late pledge that!
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I don't remember if I played Diablo III, but the only thing I remember about Diablo I and II was that each monster at least made a different sound when they died. laugh

I'm reading the rules and, yep, it's generic. I guess that's to be expected with this being CMON's first dungeoncrawler. You draw an Event card to spawn monsters and traps. You throw dice like HeroQuest / Descent, and try to roll more swords than shields; additional icons on the dice work like Surges.

However, the shadow mechanic DOES add tactics. Enemy AI divides itself into Melee (move to the square of the highest XP that's not in shadow), Ranged and Magic(fire from the farthest distance possible). Shadow mode takes a character out of LOS and reduces enemies by a defense die, but takes an action and cannot be used in lit areas, and is thus a movement restriction.

Mobs are a new mechanic (that should have been in dungeoncrawlers a long time ago!), in that Bosses cannot be killed until the Mob is killed off. Agents spawn more monsters. Roaming monsters are independent harder monsters, which are definitely different from the "wandering monsters" of roleplaying games like Dungeons and Dragons. Monsters can equip the treasure they carry (also something that should have been done long ago in dungeoncrawlers!).

Transmute (discard three cards of the same treasure level and draw a treasure card of one higher level), and purchasing skills with experience points essentially replace a "go to town" phase, where you buy equipment and new skills. You can buy skill levels, but cannot use a skill level of a higher level than the level of the dungeon (typicaly Euro game-balance design!). MD does add a "Signature Move" where you spend XP's to do something unique, sorta like in how some dungeoncrawlers you draw a skill card that only your character can use.

Still not done reading the rules, but, so far, while MD *does* add mechanics that other dungeoncrawlers don't, I don't think the rules will push off the fence anyone who already has a closetful of them and is looking for something really unique in a dungeoncrawler. I do think anyone who's new to dungeoncrawls, or primarily wants the mini's will be quite satisfied with the game.

EDITS: Movement rules look pretty clunky, since they're trying to simulate somewhat intelligent monsters in combat. I don't think anyone who ignores the rules and just moves the monsters intelligently won't have a worse playing experience!

Not clear about combat. If I roll more than one enchantment of the same type, do I apply it once, or multiple times?

I haven't seen MD's mob rules in dungeoncrawls. The mob rules are thematic and not that difficult. Heroes mow 'em down, and bosses use 'em as meatshields!

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dafrca
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Ok, I have finished reading the rule book draft and feel this is a game I would play. Clearly still needs some polish, but the core so far is good for me to play.
 
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Two errors in rulebook (atleast I think so). Hopefully they will be corrected in final version.

page 13, Sibyl's line of sight ends in first room inside building (after going through one house though), where Bjorn sees both rooms. In both cases first room is alight and second in shadow. Is here a mistake?

page 19, second paragraph, logos for Hand and Two-Handed are misplaced
 
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Christopher
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If I wanted to play boardgame Gauntlet I'd play my copy of Super Dungeon Explore, which has at least a sprinkling of tactical depth. If I wanted a fast easy dungeon crawl I'd play my D&D Adventure System games. I want to love this game because I love quality minis and dungeon crawlers, but I can't justify spending hundreds of dollars on a prettier version of Wrath of Ashardalon with no exploration and lesser AI.
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See ya.
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Brian Torrens
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I finally had a chance to read the rulebook and I must say this game sounds really solid and a lot of fun! There are some obvious typos and other errors, but I'm sure that will all get sorted out when it makes it's final pass through proofreading.

I really like the dungeon "levels" and how monsters spawn. The idea that creatures can spawn in rooms, or appear patrolling in the dungeon through event cards is very cool. I particularly like how the Roaming Monsters appear at their level token, so some really powerful creatures can show up early in the game (although deeper in the dungeon) and really make you start to think about using those shadows to avoid detection.

For those that don't like the concept of "unlocking" skills you have earned in previous adventures, I think they have handled it beautifully! I haven't played an actual RPG in many years, but when I think back on those days....

Your band of heroes enters the dungeon and encounters a band of three goblins. You are not going to expend your best attacks on this group, knowing there are far more dangerous critters, deeper in the dungeon. You are going to use appropriately powerful combat skills to deal with them. Your mage isn't going to unleash his most devastating magic on them, only to expend his spells or deplete his mana and have nothing left to handle the greater demon later on. To me this creates a nice balance of earned experience and yet maintains the challenge of the game.

Something else you should consider is that we have yet to see the actual missions. I can guess that missions taking place later in your campaign won't necessarily begin at "Dungeon Level 1" and could begin at level 2 or 3 effectively unlocking your skills right from the start.

Losing your equipment at the end of each mission is a bummer, but at the same time I can see how it creates game balance. If you need to justify it thematically, there are plenty of ways to think about it. In my RPG days, equipment (even magic equipment) would get stolen, broken, lost, taken away when you were captured, sold for better gear (or to pay debts). Heck, when you managed to get your hands on some sort of powerful artifact, many times they were more trouble than they were worth! Suddenly you become the target of scholars who want to study it, collectors who want to buy it, other adventurers who want to steal it, or perhaps prove their mettle by defeating you in combat and then take it from your corpse. Yikes!

I like the way combat with mobs is handled and the movement and use of stealth looks to be like a lot of fun. Can't wait to get my hands on this game! I'm really looking forward to what else they have in store for this campaign particularly what other Add-ons they will have and what sort of (if any) use they will offer for Black Plague cross overs.
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Max Maloney
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SpoDaddy wrote:
a prettier version of Wrath of Ashardalon with no exploration and lesser AI.

NO game has lesser AI than the D&D adventure board games.
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Tristan Hall
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Dormammu wrote:
SpoDaddy wrote:
a prettier version of Wrath of Ashardalon with no exploration and lesser AI.

NO game has lesser AI than the D&D adventure board games.


Except for Warhammer Quest.
And Advanced HeroQuest.
And this by the looks of it.
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Brian T wrote:
I finally had a chance to read the rulebook and I must say this game sounds really solid and a lot of fun! There are some obvious typos and other errors, but I'm sure that will all get sorted out when it makes it's final pass through proofreading.

I really like the dungeon "levels" and how monsters spawn. The idea that creatures can spawn in rooms, or appear patrolling in the dungeon through event cards is very cool. I particularly like how the Roaming Monsters appear at their level token, so some really powerful creatures can show up early in the game (although deeper in the dungeon) and really make you start to think about using those shadows to avoid detection.

For those that don't like the concept of "unlocking" skills you have earned in previous adventures, I think they have handled it beautifully! I haven't played an actual RPG in many years, but when I think back on those days....

Your band of heroes enters the dungeon and encounters a band of three goblins. You are not going to expend your best attacks on this group, knowing there are far more dangerous critters, deeper in the dungeon. You are going to use appropriately powerful combat skills to deal with them. Your mage isn't going to unleash his most devastating magic on them, only to expend his spells or deplete his mana and have nothing left to handle the greater demon later on. To me this creates a nice balance of earned experience and yet maintains the challenge of the game.

Something else you should consider is that we have yet to see the actual missions. I can guess that missions taking place later in your campaign won't necessarily begin at "Dungeon Level 1" and could begin at level 2 or 3 effectively unlocking your skills right from the start.

Losing your equipment at the end of each mission is a bummer, but at the same time I can see how it creates game balance. If you need to justify it thematically, there are plenty of ways to think about it. In my RPG days, equipment (even magic equipment) would get stolen, broken, lost, taken away when you were captured, sold for better gear (or to pay debts). Heck, when you managed to get your hands on some sort of powerful artifact, many times they were more trouble than they were worth! Suddenly you become the target of scholars who want to study it, collectors who want to buy it, other adventurers who want to steal it, or perhaps prove their mettle by defeating you in combat and then take it from your corpse. Yikes!

I like the way combat with mobs is handled and the movement and use of stealth looks to be like a lot of fun. Can't wait to get my hands on this game! I'm really looking forward to what else they have in store for this campaign particularly what other Add-ons they will have and what sort of (if any) use they will offer for Black Plague cross overs.


Could not agree more, can't wait to play it
 
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