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Subject: KS Bonus adventures slightly miscut rss

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Drake Coker
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The pack of bonus adventure cards is very slightly too long and wide. I'd estimate about 0.2 mm. It's tiny, but will affect riffle shuffling (cards immediately above a bonus card are very likely to fall with that card during shuffling). By Poker standards, the cards are "marked". I'm about 50% reliable at cutting to a bonus card if I try (but I'm getting better with practice!)

It's not a big deal, but worth noting.

Possible fixes:

a. Sleeve the cards.
b. Use a non-riffle shuffle (strangely, Faro is working ok for me despite its similarity to riffle shuffling).
c. Don't worry about it.

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Shane
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Olvenskol wrote:
The pack of bonus adventure cards is very slightly too long and wide. I'd estimate about 0.2 mm. It's tiny, but will affect riffle shuffling (cards immediately above a bonus card are very likely to fall with that card during shuffling). By Poker standards, the cards are "marked". I'm about 50% reliable at cutting to a bonus card if I try (but I'm getting better with practice!)

It's not a big deal, but worth noting.

Possible fixes:

a. Sleeve the cards.
b. Use a non-riffle shuffle (strangely, Faro is working ok for me despite its similarity to riffle shuffling).
c. Don't worry about it.



Oh, just like the miscuts for new cards in Run, Fight, Or Die big box. Fantastic.

Definitely my last 8th Summit game.
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Sebastian Beck
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Indeed the 2nd time that it happens to a game by 8th summit.

Stange, isn't it?whistle
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Shane
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Beckikaze wrote:
Indeed the 2nd time that it happens to a game by 8th summit.

Stange, isn't it?whistle


And will likely be the second time Jason completely ignores it and offers no fix for the backers that financed his game.

Fool me twice, shame on me. Lesson learned the hard way.
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Richard Launius
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This is a non-issue. The cards are shuffled and you cannot tell what Locations are coming up for the next adventure even if you could see a difference in cards (which I cannot). I have played many games with the decks and no one has been able to see a difference and even if they could it would have no impact on the game.

My suyggestion, play the game and have fun and don'y worry about measuring the cards. I think you will enjoy it and find that this is not an issue.

As far as 8th Summit answering, no neeed to respond here. This is not 8th Summit's Customer Service and I suspect this issue is only listed because you want to complain in public. As for me, I am getting tired of that sort of thing which seems to be a trend lately. This forum is meant for answering questions and Customer Service at companies is meant for handling issues. At least that is how it used to be and should be in my opinion.

In any event, thanks for buying the game and although I cannot speak for 8th Summit but believe that if you are truly unhappy with the product that Customer Service at 8th Summit would refund your money, which is standard practice in all industries for people that feel their product is less than satisfactory.

As for me, I am old enough that I know few things are perfect and that this is a great product, both in value of wahts in the box, overall quality, and most of all game play.

Richard
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Matt Smith
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I plan to sleeve, so hopefully the bigger cards will still fit in the sleeves.
 
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David Knepper
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Richard Launius wrote:
As for me, I am old enough that I know few things are perfect and that this is a great product, both in value of wahts in the box, overall quality, and most of all game play.

Richard


Richard, I'm pretty sure you are a LOT older than that!
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Richard Launius
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Yes, some believe I am centuries old, others that I am actually H.P. Lovecraft, but nobody knows for sure how ancient I am...
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The Game Steward
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Aging One wrote:
Richard Launius wrote:
As for me, I am old enough that I know few things are perfect and that this is a great product, both in value of wahts in the box, overall quality, and most of all game play.

Richard


Richard, I'm pretty sure you are a LOT older than that!


I happened to meet Richard at Origins this year (I was such a fanboy!), and was part of a conversation where he revealed his age. I'll just say that I was shocked, because he easily looks 10 years younger than he really is. I want to know where he hides the portrait that ages while he stays young.
 
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Pete Shirey
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He is a mystery of sorts,nobody knows his real age.... as for the cards , I have played at least 4 games of this with Richard's copy and I never knew there was an issue with the cards and his are not sleeved. I think sleeves would certainly make it negligible but for those who are not as concerned I do not think it is an issue either.
 
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Shane
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Richard Launius wrote:
As far as 8th Summit answering, no neeed to respond here. This is not 8th Summit's Customer Service and I suspect this issue is only listed because you want to complain in public. As for me, I am getting tired of that sort of thing which seems to be a trend lately. This forum is meant for answering questions and Customer Service at companies is meant for handling issues. At least that is how it used to be and should be in my opinion.


Good for you. I am getting tired of Jason Maxwell cutting corners and producing inferior product and his complete lack of response to the customer service emails that you seem to think this should be relegated to.

I invite anyone subscribing to Richard's position to view the comments on this Kickstarter project and all recent updates, wherein many people who reached out to 8th Summit's customer service email address never received responses:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1545517208/run-fight-or...

The fact is, Jason ignores complaints about his product. Just like you are right now, dismissing miscut cards completely. A public forum is actually the very best place to air complaints like this, because it warns people away from future projects where they will receive the same treatment.

After the fiasco that was Run, Fight, Or Die Big Box where all of the new mini cards were miscut and quite blatantly stand out from the originals, maybe the publisher should have learned his lesson and attempted better QC. But, NAH! They're just Kickstarter backers and customers -- screw 'em!
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reaching out from the in-between spaces...
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CoffeeGnerd wrote:
Richard Launius wrote:
As far as 8th Summit answering, no neeed to respond here. This is not 8th Summit's Customer Service and I suspect this issue is only listed because you want to complain in public. As for me, I am getting tired of that sort of thing which seems to be a trend lately. This forum is meant for answering questions and Customer Service at companies is meant for handling issues. At least that is how it used to be and should be in my opinion.


Good for you. I am getting tired of Jason Maxwell cutting corners and producing inferior product and his complete lack of response to the customer service emails that you seem to think this should be relegated to.

I invite anyone subscribing to Richard's position to view the comments on this Kickstarter project and all recent updates, wherein many people who reached out to 8th Summit's customer service email address never received responses:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1545517208/run-fight-or...

The fact is, Jason ignores complaints about his product. Just like you are right now, dismissing miscut cards completely. A public forum is actually the very best place to air complaints like this, because it warns people away from future projects where they will receive the same treatment.

After the fiasco that was Run, Fight, Or Die Big Box where all of the new mini cards were miscut and quite blatantly stand out from the originals, maybe the publisher should have learned his lesson and attempted better QC. But, NAH! They're just Kickstarter backers and customers -- screw 'em!


In the case of Run, Fight or Die, I never had an issue. Sure, I might know the next card is from the expansion, but I don't know WHICH expansion card it is. So it's still pretty random. Miscut cards are really only an issue if it somehow allows you to game the system, which in both games it doesn't.

Jorune
 
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Magic Pink
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Jorune wrote:
CoffeeGnerd wrote:
Richard Launius wrote:
As far as 8th Summit answering, no neeed to respond here. This is not 8th Summit's Customer Service and I suspect this issue is only listed because you want to complain in public. As for me, I am getting tired of that sort of thing which seems to be a trend lately. This forum is meant for answering questions and Customer Service at companies is meant for handling issues. At least that is how it used to be and should be in my opinion.


Good for you. I am getting tired of Jason Maxwell cutting corners and producing inferior product and his complete lack of response to the customer service emails that you seem to think this should be relegated to.

I invite anyone subscribing to Richard's position to view the comments on this Kickstarter project and all recent updates, wherein many people who reached out to 8th Summit's customer service email address never received responses:

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1545517208/run-fight-or...

The fact is, Jason ignores complaints about his product. Just like you are right now, dismissing miscut cards completely. A public forum is actually the very best place to air complaints like this, because it warns people away from future projects where they will receive the same treatment.

After the fiasco that was Run, Fight, Or Die Big Box where all of the new mini cards were miscut and quite blatantly stand out from the originals, maybe the publisher should have learned his lesson and attempted better QC. But, NAH! They're just Kickstarter backers and customers -- screw 'em!


In the case of Run, Fight or Die, I never had an issue. Sure, I might know the next card is from the expansion, but I don't know WHICH expansion card it is. So it's still pretty random. Miscut cards are really only an issue if it somehow allows you to game the system, which in both games it doesn't.

Jorune


Except it absolutely can if you want it to. And that doesn't change the fact this keeps happening with his games and shouldn't be.

I can guarantee you that you also had the same issues every one else did with Big Box because everyone HAD to. You may not have cared as much, which is fine, but you had it.

Richard Launius's reply above doesn't need commenting on; I certainly won't be getting any more of his games.
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Steve Billups
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I guess I could understand the level of anger in this thread if the cards were for a high stakes poker game and you stood to lose a lot of money. What difference does it make if you can identify the next card that is coming up in a storytelling game like this? Are you really going to change your strategy? Is it really going to spoil the evening?

I must be playing these game wrong. I must not be paying close enough attention. This is some serious shit, apparently. We've got to defend that Last Stand with gritted teeth and arms raised to the sky in anguish at the injustice of a rulebook typo.

My game arrives tomorrow so I have not seen it yet. If I open up the box and feel like an eclipse of my life is taking place, I will update this thread and admit it's the end of the world.
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Clint Conner
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Is simply cutting the cards down to size not an option? I have a straight-edge, a hobby knife, and measuring tape. Are the card "ends" made in such a way that cutting them off will cause the card to "unravel"?
 
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Dan Licata
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.2 mm seems incredibly small to me and I would think hardly noticeable. I also don't feel like the shuffle issue will really affect a game like this and seriously if you are thinking cheating by cutting cards in this style of game then maybe you are playing it wrong.

I'll withhold final judgement till I receive my copy today but it certainly doesn't seem like that big a of an issue and is also something I see/hear about quite often in board games.
 
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Neil Edmonds
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Have you tried asking 8th Summit to provide a digital copy of the cards to enable personal printing or make the cards available through a website like DriveThru Cards?

I can empathize with the frustration on this thread, but making personal attacks against game designers and publishers isn't the way to get results.

I've watched Richard Launius post in the forums for several of his games and he's a decent and patient individual. I've seen Richard Launius endure some nasty comments with grace and poise. The thing you have to remember is that Richard Launius is an independent game designer. He comes up with a prototype, licenses or sells the game design to a publisher, and then supports the publisher as they bring the game to market. Richard has little to no say in how a game is manufactured, marketed, shipped, or supported. Richard participates in forums answering questions as a courtesy to customers. It isn't fair to heap so much blame on Richard Launius for a problem he hasn't created, especially when he's caught in the middle between customers and publishers. It's a challenging position for Richard Launius to be in. If Richard offends customers, they don't buy his games and his livelihood is threatened. If he offends the publisher, they won't support his current game or buy future games from him. I think it's remarkable Richard Launius continues to participate publicly at all in the face of so many drawbacks and so little benefits.

Had I known this thread was going on, I wouldn't have posted about the Jake and Joshua cards because I wasn't aware there was this much hate circulating. I posted about the Hero Cards because I didn't want to pester customer service about a manufacturing problem everyone was experiencing that couldn't be fixed. I couldn't get that data without asking the community about their experience.

I'd don't know much about Jason Maxwell or 8th Summit; but I do read forum posts, blogs, and occassionally meet people in the industry - it's one of the perks of living in the Puget Sound WA region with WOTC, Paizo, Privateer Press, Flying Frog, and other companies in your backyard. Manufacturing is one of the biggest headaches in the industry because low-cost printing options in China is what enables publishers to deliver board games with lots of miniatures, cardboard, and artwork at an acceptable price point. It's not as simple as "pick the best manufacturer and use them all the time" for the following reasons:

- Overseas printers do jobs for lots of different companies, so they might not be available when a publisher needs them.
- Different languages, cultural norms, and time zone differences make it difficult for overseas printers to report problems and for publishers to suggest solutions.
- Printers change printing equipment and experience staff turnover which doesn't always guarantee a publisher will get a good print run even if they use the same printer all the time.
- Managing card colors across different print runs (possibly even across different print companies) over time is a Sisyphean task.
- Sometimes printers get overwhelmed and they subcontract the work to other printers. Some printers have even engaged in underhanded tactics and provided print samples from a different printer just to land a contract because their own company wasn't up to the task.
- Switching to a U.S. printer isn't always the answer for delays either. Pathfinder Adventure Card Game did that after the 1st Edition Rise of the Runelords debacle and they wound out hiring a stateside printer who didn't deliver on time.

Shipping is a whole other issue. I'm frankly amazed someone can organize and coordinate the process of manufacturing a game at all.

So I hope I've provided some useful insights.
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Matt Smith
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Well said, Autoduelist. I've met Richard at Origins and he is as nice and humble of a game designer as you'll ever meet. He was very generous and gracious with his time, and he is in high demand at conventions.

If there are a few warts with this first printing, I will gladly overlook them for the wonderful adventure I expect to have with this game.
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danlicata wrote:
.2 mm seems incredibly small to me and I would think hardly noticeable. I also don't feel like the shuffle issue will really affect a game like this and seriously if you are thinking cheating by cutting cards in this style of game then maybe you are playing it wrong.

I'll withhold final judgement till I receive my copy today but it certainly doesn't seem like that big a of an issue and is also something I see/hear about quite often in board games.


I received my copy today. It is a non-issue as Richard indicated. The difference is so subtle that it does not affect shuffling or any other facet of gameplay. I don't think you could cut the cards down to size because the difference is so minuscule.

I didn't have any problems with the Rulebook either, for what it's worth. And I've never played Defenders of the Realm so it was a new game entirely for me. There is an index in the back and I haven't come across any questions that I was not able to answer.

The miniatures are not the greatest quality, but not the worst either. I boiled most of them to straighten out the molds, but it's not a big deal. The boss miniatures are well done. I'll probably paint the characters and the bosses eventually. I'm also not crazy about some of the graphic design choices, particularly the large red action tokens with not-so-great looking clip art of two crossed pistols. None of that stuff really matters ultimately. I'm in the middle of my first game right now and the gameplay seems solid enough. Lots of choices every turn.

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David Knepper
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Magic Pink wrote:
I certainly won't be getting any more of his games.


Uh, do you think Richard Launius will notice? shake
 
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Richard or any designer can be the nicest guy in the world. If the publisher is problematic, especially with Kickstarter campaigns in this Kickstarter era, then game sales will suffer. If a designer knew a publisher had a bad reputation among other designers and a spotty history of non-payment, they probably wouldn't sign on with them. If a designer knew that the publisher had some extreme political view at odds with their own beliefs and the general beliefs of society, they might avoid them so as not to be found guilty by association. Following that logic, once a company develops a bad KS reputation, the designer should be well aware of that and how it might negatively affect the sales of their games.

In the other thread, Richard mentions the Kickstarter didn't sell as well as they hoped and they didn't get to include every planned stretch goal including characters on the box art. Why did the game undersell? Is it because of Richard? The game? Or 8th summit? Especially when you see from the sales numbers of Outlive and This War of Mine (and Fallout4) that the gaming world was ready for post-apocalyptic themes. I'd probably bet right now that the Richard's upcoming co-designed Fate of the Elder Gods will also outsell this game on KS because of Greater than Games better reputation.

As for the card issue... I don't have a copy of the game, and if I do get one it will probably be the retail version. Who knows if the extras will make it to the BGG store or not. So I don't know how good/bad the extra cards are cut. I do know that in other promo packs/expansions I've purchased that cards with very minor size differences still have problems where "normal" shuffling clumps the cards together by size which is irritating at best, and a real flaw in games where the cards need to be fully randomized for balance at worst.

And having these conversations publicly is what makes the internet work for consumers. When someone goes crazy on BGG and rants about a publisher or retailer due to one misunderstanding or rare but fixable problem, the BGG community will ALWAYS call them out on it. When a pattern emerges its in everyone's best interest if the warning bells are sounded.

The oddity here is that there are companies that are making decent final products but have zero public-facing Kickstarter skills. So the campaigns leave a bad taste with backers and potential backers that then poisons the well for future Kickstarters. Some of these problems might be minor or possibly to overlook due to the quality of the gameplay, but the bumbling handling of the situations makes them seem a bigger deal than they are. That's just the pitfall of doing business on Kickstarter.

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Scott Everts
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I got my copy and opened the cards tonight to check them out. I have to agree this is a non-issue. I had to really look hard to notice the difference and I had no trouble shuffling them.

Component wise this game is very nicely done. The minis are the weakest part but everything else is really nice. I'm especially pleased the hero and villain ref sheets are thick chipboard along with the Action Ref sheets. Most companies just use thin cardstock for those so a nice addition.
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Howard Massey
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ScottE wrote:
I got my copy and opened the cards tonight to check them out. I have to agree this is a non-issue. I had to really look hard to notice the difference and I had no trouble shuffling them.

Component wise this game is very nicely done. The minis are the weakest part but everything else is really nice. I'm especially pleased the hero and villain ref sheets are thick chipboard along with the Action Ref sheets. Most companies just use thin cardstock for those so a nice addition.


Yea, ScottE cards look like they'll be fine.

Minis- soft plastic is fine, less chance of spears/gun barrels breaking at expense of less detail is OK with me !
(though the Smell_ Ughhhhh_ flash back of Clash of Cultures fiasco.
Smell is not as strong, so no panic people!

Thick chipboards' is a big thumbsup
( just wish there were 5 Ref sheets

And I'd add I like the rulebook, better than most books I've gotten lately.
Index, Table of context, scenarios repeated on card & in book.
(D3's are even explained to rookies)

For a nit-pick_ the crossed pistols & pick-shovel tokens don't match the art of the rest of the game, wish they were of the same level .. but I'll get over it.

It's like getting an AT board game from the 80's-90's
Yippee !
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Scott Sexton
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I too received my copy yesterday, and my copy has absolutely 0 matching problems with the bonus cards. I've done everything I can think of, but in my hands, there is absolutely no size difference I can detect. Maybe you just have a bad set of cards. BELIEVE ME, I am picky and all to happy to ask for replacement cards when warranted, but I'm perfectly happy with my cards (even though I am sleeving them).

If you want to complain about something, I think there may be some legit beefs with the inconsistent art design (I'm looking at you cartoony crossed guns icon). In spite of those issues, the awesome gameplay still shines through loud and clear.
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Paul Bauman
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While we're picking nits, the action/wound tokens are too big. There's no reason for them to be that size, with that big crossed-gun clip art on them, hogging up space on a table that's already full of the rest of this game. I think I'll proxy something else in for them.
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