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Subject: How American Politics Went Insane rss

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Steven Woodcock
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Interesting article (well, I thought to anyway) on how American politics have become so...dynamic? crazy? partisan?...your choice of adjectives here:

http://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2016/07/how-amer...


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Daniel
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The instant classical liberalism was sidelined and socialism became the new radicals. From then on, with no significant faction trying to reduce and eliminate power, it has just been left and right clamoring for the levers of power to wield over others.

https://mises.org/library/libertarian-heritage-american-revo...
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Frank F
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We are all victims of a sick culture shaped by the perverse incentives of the monetary system. Politics more radically so.
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J
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Koldfoot wrote:
Just imagine what it would be like if the two parties had any actual disagreement on an issue.

Like abortion, guns, healthcare, LGBTQ rights, etc.?
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Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Just imagine what it would be like if the two parties had any actual disagreement on an issue.

Like abortion, guns, healthcare, LGBTQ rights, etc.?


Exactly. No difference.

Or are you under some false impression?

Actually it appears you are.
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Ron Preisach
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Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Just imagine what it would be like if the two parties had any actual disagreement on an issue.

Like abortion, guns, healthcare, LGBTQ rights, etc.?


Exactly. No difference.

Or are you under some false impression?


Your views intrigue me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.
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Daniel Edwards
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The medical metaphor gets a bit strained but I thought it was a good article.

Pity none of the Finest seem likely to take much of it to heart.
 
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Sam I am
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Congress has as much incentive to change the status quo as for profit medicine has to eradicate chronic conditions.
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G Rowls
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meh it's just a simple reflection of how civilisation is going insane.
 
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Pontifex Maximus
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Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Just imagine what it would be like if the two parties had any actual disagreement on an issue.

Like abortion, guns, healthcare, LGBTQ rights, etc.?


Exactly. No difference.

Or are you under some false impression?

Actually it appears you are.


Which one? Talking national level. State level may differ by state.

Both parties want no change in the status quo of abortion and guns. Those are both big fund raising issues. They are in complete agreement. Hell, throw in immigration.

Republicans helped pass obamacare. They have made no serious move to counter it, nor will they if they get control of the White House. Their plan was to let the court deal with it, when that failed they gave up.

LGBT rights are strictly off limits to both parties. Both are quite content to let the courts handle it to avoid pissing off voters. Both parties agree to avoid that slippery slope and take cover by blaming or applauding courts.


You do realize that Obamacare had not GOP votes either in the Senate or the House, correct? And that it was filibuster proof in the Senate as well, without any GOP help correct?

So you wish to elucidate how Obamacare passed with the "help" of the GOP?
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OMG. You mean the dirty old system of log-rolling and political patronage actually accomplished something? Yes. Yes it did. It accomplished consensus, and that allowed government to function.

Maybe the next time we hear conservatives crying about the "government class" or leftists crying about "the stacked deck" we can pause and remember a time when the parties agreed to quietly support each other's pet projects in order to accomplish the primary goal of governance. As unsavory as it sounds, that system beat the hell out of what we have now, which is basically each side inserting poison pills into every important bill so that compromise becomes impossible and government stumbles from one unnecessary crisis to the next.

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Tom McVey
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Kinda crappily argued article: while both parties are more partisan, the combination of increased partisanship combined with rejection of party leadership is a GOP phenomenon not shared with the Dems.

The Dem's in congress are probably more disciplined than ever: think how many fell on their swords to pass Obamacare: Pelosi has pretty tight control over her caucus. The author uses the Working Families Party as an example of the Tea Party on the left, but the Working Families Party bombed in the NY primaries. You'd be better reading Norm Orenstein than this article.
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Pontifex Maximus
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Koldfoot wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Just imagine what it would be like if the two parties had any actual disagreement on an issue.

Like abortion, guns, healthcare, LGBTQ rights, etc.?


Exactly. No difference.

Or are you under some false impression?

Actually it appears you are.


Which one? Talking national level. State level may differ by state.

Both parties want no change in the status quo of abortion and guns. Those are both big fund raising issues. They are in complete agreement. Hell, throw in immigration.

Republicans helped pass obamacare. They have made no serious move to counter it, nor will they if they get control of the White House. Their plan was to let the court deal with it, when that failed they gave up.

LGBT rights are strictly off limits to both parties. Both are quite content to let the courts handle it to avoid pissing off voters. Both parties agree to avoid that slippery slope and take cover by blaming or applauding courts.


You do realize that Obamacare had not GOP votes either in the Senate or the House, correct? And that it was filibuster proof in the Senate as well, without any GOP help correct?

So you wish to elucidate how Obamacare passed with the "help" of the GOP?


Got me on that point, but Republicans were all in on Hillarycare before Limbaugh organized some opposition. They then reluctantly opposed it.

They won the house and senate promising in part to undo Obamacare and they've done.... what... exactly? Other than savage Cruz, who was the one man who tried to keep his word on the issue?

They're on board. It's not even an issue anymore.


Further fact that they never had the votes in the Senate to do either get a vote or over ride a veto seems to have escaped your notice as well.

But why let facts get in the way of a meme
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Josh
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Some salient points wrapped in hyperbole in OP article.

Remember every plane that ever descended was on course to crash into the ground untill it landed.
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J.D. Hall
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SPIGuy wrote:
OMG. You mean the dirty old system of log-rolling and political patronage actually accomplished something? Yes. Yes it did. It accomplished consensus, and that allowed government to function.

Maybe the next time we hear conservatives crying about the "government class" or leftists crying about "the stacked deck" we can pause and remember a time when the parties agreed to quietly support each other's pet projects in order to accomplish the primary goal of governance. As unsavory as it sounds, that system beat the hell out of what we have now, which is basically each side inserting poison pills into every important bill so that compromise becomes impossible and government stumbles from one unnecessary crisis to the next.



There you go again, being reasonable and rational. This is Internet, we don't tolerate that kind of stuff.
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Lynette
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FYI - Some discussion of this article is in this thread from a couple of days ago.

Election 2020: Kanye West vs. Phil Robertson
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Andrew Bartosh

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I'm gonna make the common plea again: When you post a link, if you are not going to start with some sort of direct commentary on the article's arguments, could you at least post a highlight or thesis-style statement from the article?
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Walt
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Interesting article if a little over-long.

Congress has been doing everything possible to not do anything. The President has a tool he hasn't used:

Article II, Section. 3.

[The President] shall from time to time give to the Congress Information on the State of the Union, and recommend to their Consideration such Measures as he shall judge necessary and expedient; he may, on extraordinary Occasions, convene both Houses, or either of them, and in Case of Disagreement between them, with Respect to the Time of Adjournment, he may adjourn them to such Time as he shall think proper; ...


So, what if he called Congress back into session because they didn't fill the USSC vacancy, pass some gun bill (even one that says the law is perfect as it stands), and (probably) didn't completely pass a budget? Right in campaign season. If a quorum isn't met, those that do come, and POTUS, names and shames. Take the naming and shaming back to the districts, then rinse and repeat. Given the hostility toward Congress for never doing anything, I think it might work.
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Koldfoot wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Just imagine what it would be like if the two parties had any actual disagreement on an issue.

Like abortion, guns, healthcare, LGBTQ rights, etc.?


Exactly. No difference.

Or are you under some false impression?

Actually it appears you are.


Which one? Talking national level. State level may differ by state.

Both parties want no change in the status quo of abortion and guns. Those are both big fund raising issues. They are in complete agreement. Hell, throw in immigration.

Republicans helped pass obamacare. They have made no serious move to counter it, nor will they if they get control of the White House. Their plan was to let the court deal with it, when that failed they gave up.

LGBT rights are strictly off limits to both parties. Both are quite content to let the courts handle it to avoid pissing off voters. Both parties agree to avoid that slippery slope and take cover by blaming or applauding courts.


You do realize that Obamacare had not GOP votes either in the Senate or the House, correct? And that it was filibuster proof in the Senate as well, without any GOP help correct?

So you wish to elucidate how Obamacare passed with the "help" of the GOP?


Got me on that point, but Republicans were all in on Hillarycare before Limbaugh organized some opposition. They then reluctantly opposed it.

They won the house and senate promising in part to undo Obamacare and they've done.... what... exactly? Other than savage Cruz, who was the one man who tried to keep his word on the issue?

They're on board. It's not even an issue anymore.


Further fact that they never had the votes in the Senate to do either get a vote or over ride a veto seems to have escaped your notice as well.

But why let facts get in the way of a meme


They never even tried to defund it, which was easily possible.

Koldie's belief is that neither party wants permanent solutions to issues like abortion, gun control, immigration, health care, and the like. What they want is permanent deadlock on those issues so that the campaign contributions will continue to flow from single-issue supporters. He's not wrong about that. It's now thoroughly ingrained.

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Steve
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Amendments to change Congress are DOA.

But, consider this one.

Without changing the 435 Reps. in the House, instead of just one Rep. per district have 3 or 5 or something. And let voters vote for more than one or split their vote among less or even bullet vote for one. The 3 (5?) top vote getters are elected.

When I lived in Ill. before 1975 that was how they did it. Three Reps. per district and you could vote for 3 with 1 vote, 2 with 1.5 votes each, 1 with 3 votes and maybe 1 with 1 vote plus 1 with 2 votes.

This does mean it is very hard to get over 2/3 of the Reps. in the House because the minority party can usually get 1 seat in any case. So, maybe 5 would be better.

Of course there would have to be some smaller districts with fewer Reps., but try not to have any 1 Rep. districts.



 
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Motley Reynolds
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Those issues dominate the political discussion as a side show, like the old slight of hand trick. Distract the people with emotional wedge issues that really have no bearing on the lives of 90% of the them while they ransack what's left of the country and its people and wage total global hegemony against the rest of the world.

Where's the talk about real transparency and oversight? We have no oversight anymore of the financial system or the Feds. We have no oversight of the FDA and the drug companies. We have no oversight of the growing security and surveillance state. We have no oversight of the Biotech industry and what's happening to our food supply. And the media, who are supposed to be our watchdogs on these issues, have been completely captured by the same corporate establishment that was the culprit in gutting all the previous oversight in the first place. No use even mentioning the military industrial complex and how everything they o now is hidden behind the veil of "national security". We the people have now lost all control over that with no real way to ever get it back.

But no one wants to hear anything about any of this. It's all abortion, gay rights, and who is the newest transvestite this week on the Lifetime channel.

Then we get to the last 4 Presidents who were complete and utter liars.

People are finally waking up to this, and why the disapproval rating of Trump and Clinton are both at 60%.
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Greg Michealson
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Koldfoot wrote:
Kumitedad wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Just imagine what it would be like if the two parties had any actual disagreement on an issue.

Like abortion, guns, healthcare, LGBTQ rights, etc.?


Exactly. No difference.

Or are you under some false impression?

Actually it appears you are.


Which one? Talking national level. State level may differ by state.

Both parties want no change in the status quo of abortion and guns. Those are both big fund raising issues. They are in complete agreement. Hell, throw in immigration.

Republicans helped pass obamacare. They have made no serious move to counter it, nor will they if they get control of the White House. Their plan was to let the court deal with it, when that failed they gave up.

LGBT rights are strictly off limits to both parties. Both are quite content to let the courts handle it to avoid pissing off voters. Both parties agree to avoid that slippery slope and take cover by blaming or applauding courts.


You do realize that Obamacare had not GOP votes either in the Senate or the House, correct? And that it was filibuster proof in the Senate as well, without any GOP help correct?

So you wish to elucidate how Obamacare passed with the "help" of the GOP?


Got me on that point, but Republicans were all in on Hillarycare before Limbaugh organized some opposition. They then reluctantly opposed it.

They won the house and senate promising in part to undo Obamacare and they've done.... what... exactly? Other than savage Cruz, who was the one man who tried to keep his word on the issue?

They're on board. It's not even an issue anymore.


Sounds like revisionist BS to me. I can't find any evidence Republicans were on board with the Clinton health care plan.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clinton_health_care_plan_of_19...

Starting on September 28, 1993, Hillary Clinton appeared for several days of testimony before five congressional committees on health care.[8] Opponents of the bill organized against it before it was presented to the Democratic-controlled Congress on November 20, 1993.[8] The bill was a complex proposal of more than 1000 pages, the core element of which was an enforced mandate for employers to provide health insurance coverage to all of their employees. The full text of the November 20 bill (the Health Security Act) is available online.[9]

Prominent opposition to the Clinton plan was led by William Kristol and his policy group Project for the Republican Future, which is widely credited with orchestrating the plan's defeat through a series of now legendary "policy memos" faxed to Republican leaders.
 
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Greg Michealson
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Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
jmilum wrote:
Koldfoot wrote:
Just imagine what it would be like if the two parties had any actual disagreement on an issue.

Like abortion, guns, healthcare, LGBTQ rights, etc.?


Exactly. No difference.

Or are you under some false impression?

Actually it appears you are.


Republicans helped pass obamacare.


You're crazy if you actually believe that. Your arguments make it seem as if you are slipping in and out of some parallel universe where everything is the opposite of reality.

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Nope. Sorry. You're wrong. Republicans helped pass Obamacare by losing so many elections that Democrats ended up with the presidency and a filibuster-proof majority in Congress. So there.

Seriously, there was a smidgen of Republican input on the bill's details through the Senate Finance Committee. The bill that was finally signed into law contained many provisions designed to attract moderate Republicans. All for naught, of course. Republicans united in opposition, and Democrats had to pass their attempt at a "bipartisan bill" along strict party lines.

And what is Obamacare? It's a watered-down hybrid of Obama and Clinton's campaign promises, Romneycare, previous Democratic and Republican proposals, and ground sausage packed together in House and Senate committees, heavily spiced by big pharma and the insurance companies.

Obamacare is a perfect example of how insane the political process has become. It's a law that fails to satisfy even its own proponents. It's not single payer. It doesn't cover everyone. It has too many employer mandate exemptions. It doesn't eliminate for-profit coverage. It does nothing to stem the steadily-rising costs of medical care. Because of that, it will eventually overwhelm and bankrupt itself.

It's a giant boondoggle. It's an unfinished work which can never be finished in this atmosphere of political grandstanding and partisan bickering. Democrats dare not criticize it; Republicans dare not embrace it; and without some form of consensus between the two parties, it remains in stasis, waiting for one party or the other to achieve the presidency and the kind of congressional super-majorities we haven't seen since the Johnson administration. Good luck with that.

 
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Motley Reynolds
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To GreyICE

And this is why it is totally and utterly insane for anyone to ask the govt to fix anything. It is too broken, to corrupt, and far too big to even fix a broken shoelace without it becoming a 2700 page bill mandating taxpayer payouts to 300 different national and multinational corporations, which will inevitably and on purpose result in both shoelaces now being broken, thus calling for even more action. I pray everyday for gridlock. Well, some days I pray for a revolution and seeing certain individuals in our govt and on Wall Street hanging from lamp posts. Can I say that?

Seriously, our govt does not fix problems, it only creates them. This is now become by design in order that it can ensure its own never ending growth.
 
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