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Mare Nostrum: Empires» Forums » Rules

Subject: Control marker converting and number rss

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Thayne Weston
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Two questions came up from my game last night, I think I know the answer but wasn't sure.

1. An attacker (player a)is trying to convert a control marker (from player b) The next round before player a'sturn, and thus the conversion, the player b brought in troops to attack the troops tying to convert his control marker. The battle ensues and neither side wins, which leaves the area at war.

When it is player A's turn is the conversion successful, or not since it is at war and his troops had to be pulled off the control marker.

I assumed not since it seemed like the example in the book under controlling a building and the troop moves off to fight and then could return if successful.

2. Each player has 7 control markers, I assume they are limited to that number of areas they can control. Can you remove one from one area to take a new area, or is your expansion over. ( I don't know if this is ever really an issue, just wondering)
 
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Greg
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1. I agree that you can't convert control because they are at war.

2. I recall seeing something about player pieces being limited to what you start with.
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Nathaniel Dalton
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negmon wrote:
Two questions came up from my game last night, I think I know the answer but wasn't sure.

2. Each player has 7 control markers, I assume they are limited to that number of areas they can control. Can you remove one from one area to take a new area, or is your expansion over. ( I don't know if this is ever really an issue, just wondering)


This is more of a 2 player issue than beyond that. My wife and I almost ran into this issue and we basically said you have to lose control of space (that includes abandoning anything on that space, but it stays built) to move the marker to the space you want to control. I think that seems fair since 1. you paid to build the control marker and 2. most likely you are abandoning anything you built in there (ie. camels, cities etc.)
 
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John Cullen

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I'm a bit confused here myself. As Babolyn I used up all my controls markers before Jeursilam became available. The question is, can your voluntarily remove a control marker? And, of course, when? But that also raises the question, can you voluntarily remove any of the units/markers? If I have built all of my available legons, but now want to build one somewhere else, can I remove one somewhere on the map and build one somewhere else? Same, of course, applies to trireme and fortifications. Any thoughts?
 
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Greg
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I thought I just saw something about this , perhaps on the FAQ thread or another one. But it was answered that control markers are limited, so you better be careful when using them all, as that's all you get and you can't remove some to place others.

Edit, found this in FAQ:


Quote:
28. Once you have built all of your Control markers, can you remove one to later built another?

(Designer: No. So be careful how you use them, and save one or two if you'll need them later on).
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Jon Snow
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goo Hey, someone actually reads the FAQ this early! Yay! It also goes for military units as well. No removing, rebuilding, or exceeding the counter limits provided!
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Daniel U. Thibault
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Also note that the conversion rules are slightly different in French than English. In English, you merely need to be still converting and connected when your turn comes. In French, there is the additional proviso that you must have remained conqueror since you began conversion. This means conversion fails if the Province becomes at war at any point.

In the above example, if A starts conversion, then B comes in and puts the province at war (A and B both present in the Province), then C comes in and mutually annihilates with B, when A's turn comes back he's alone in the Province and gets to complete the conversion. Not so in French.
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Aaron Bredon
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Urhixidur wrote:
Also note that the conversion rules are slightly different in French than English. In English, you merely need to be still converting and connected when your turn comes. In French, there is the additional proviso that you must have remained conqueror since you began conversion. This means conversion fails if the Province becomes at war at any point.

In the above example, if A starts conversion, then B comes in and puts the province at war (A and B both present in the Province), then C comes in and mutually annihilates with B, when A's turn comes back he's alone in the Province and gets to complete the conversion. Not so in French.


If the province is ever at war, no legions can remain occupying the control marker or buildings, so conversion is aborted in all versions (Academy Games English rules page 7, under 4.3 Conquests).
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Daniel U. Thibault
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abredon wrote:
Urhixidur wrote:
Also note that the conversion rules are slightly different in French than English. In English, you merely need to be still converting and connected when your turn comes. In French, there is the additional proviso that you must have remained conqueror since you began conversion. This means conversion fails if the Province becomes at war at any point.

In the above example, if A starts conversion, then B comes in and puts the province at war (A and B both present in the Province), then C comes in and mutually annihilates with B, when A's turn comes back he's alone in the Province and gets to complete the conversion. Not so in French.


If the province is ever at war, no legions can remain occupying the control marker or buildings, so conversion is aborted in all versions (Academy Games English rules page 7, under 4.3 Conquests).


Not in the scenario I outlined. At the end of B's battle phase the Province becomes At War and A is no longer "converting", but at the end of C's battle phase, A is now alone in the Province and resumes his conversion position. The English rules do *not* specify that the At War interlude breaks the conversion. (4.3.3, besides the connectivity requirement, merely states "If at the beginning of a Conqueror’s future Move and Battle turn his Legion still occupies an opponent’s Control Marker...".

Don't get me wrong, I find the French rule better. If you think the English text is supposed to be the same rule, that's not how it reads. (Despite my and other reviewers' pointing this out during the review process)
 
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Aaron Bredon
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Urhixidur wrote:
abredon wrote:
Urhixidur wrote:
Also note that the conversion rules are slightly different in French than English. In English, you merely need to be still converting and connected when your turn comes. In French, there is the additional proviso that you must have remained conqueror since you began conversion. This means conversion fails if the Province becomes at war at any point.

In the above example, if A starts conversion, then B comes in and puts the province at war (A and B both present in the Province), then C comes in and mutually annihilates with B, when A's turn comes back he's alone in the Province and gets to complete the conversion. Not so in French.


If the province is ever at war, no legions can remain occupying the control marker or buildings, so conversion is aborted in all versions (Academy Games English rules page 7, under 4.3 Conquests).


Not in the scenario I outlined. At the end of B's battle phase the Province becomes At War and A is no longer "converting", but at the end of C's battle phase, A is now alone in the Province and resumes his conversion position. The English rules do *not* specify that the At War interlude breaks the conversion. (4.3.3, besides the connectivity requirement, merely states "If at the beginning of a Conqueror’s future Move and Battle turn his Legion still occupies an opponent’s Control Marker...".

Don't get me wrong, I find the French rule better. If you think the English text is supposed to be the same rule, that's not how it reads. (Despite my and other reviewers' pointing this out during the review process)


No, the phrase I was referring to was
Rules Page 7 wrote:

If, however, more than one player’s Units remain after the battle, the Province is ‘At War’ and the Conqueror’s Legions no longer occupy any Buildings or Control Markers.


If another battle occurs between other players, and the player who was formerly converting is left alone in the region, his Legions are not occupying the Control Marker, as they were removed from the Control Marker when the province became 'At War'. They cannot be put back on the Control Marker as their player is not the attacker (it is not his turn). You only get the choice to move onto a building or control marker when it is your turn to move/battle.
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Daniel U. Thibault
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abredon wrote:

No, the phrase I was referring to was
Rules Page 7 wrote:

If, however, more than one player’s Units remain after the battle, the Province is ‘At War’ and the Conqueror’s Legions no longer occupy any Buildings or Control Markers.


If another battle occurs between other players, and the player who was formerly converting is left alone in the region, his Legions are not occupying the Control Marker, as they were removed from the Control Marker when the province became 'At War'. They cannot be put back on the Control Marker as their player is not the attacker (it is not his turn). You only get the choice to move onto a building or control marker when it is your turn to move/battle.


That is true, the English rules do mention this conversion breaker. The problem is that it's not written anywhere near as clearly as in the French. a) There is no mention of occupation/conversion breaking in 4.2.1 At War; b) There is only a very indirect mention of this conversion breaker in 4.3.3 Convert Provincial Control. It's much too easy to miss it. (As our argument proves)
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Thayne Weston
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abredon wrote:


No, the phrase I was referring to was
Rules Page 7 wrote:

If, however, more than one player’s Units remain after the battle, the Province is ‘At War’ and the Conqueror’s Legions no longer occupy any Buildings or Control Markers.


If another battle occurs between other players, and the player who was formerly converting is left alone in the region, his Legions are not occupying the Control Marker, as they were removed from the Control Marker when the province became 'At War'. They cannot be put back on the Control Marker as their player is not the attacker (it is not his turn). You only get the choice to move onto a building or control marker when it is your turn to move/battle.


Interesting, I missed that in my rule book readings. That can definitely changes things a bit. Thanks!
 
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