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Subject: Need a replacement game for Axis and Allies (5 or 6 players) rss

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thenew stanpede
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Hi All!

A few years ago my friends and I used to get together to play Axis and Allies pretty regularly. Since then I have convinced some of them to play ASLSK and Lock 'n Load Tactical with me, and some of them have taken to it. As you know, these are both tactical level games, so I'm looking for something more of the strategic level. I think it's time to get the group back together for a large group game with more complexity than Axis and Allies.

I am looking for a consim that:
1) can support 5 or 6 players
2) can be played in a day (8 or 9 hrs tops)
3) has replay value

I think we enjoy that A&A is played in 2 teams, rather than every person for themselves. I'd prefer a hex-and-counter game but that isn't necessary.

The game doesn't need to be about WWII, but honestly it kinda helps as my friends aren't military history buffs and might be put off by an obscure conflict.

Like I said, the game needs to be able to be finished in a day. As much as the idea of a game like World at War or World in Flames appeals to me, I just don't have the space to set up a game like that and leave it sitting around for months. Also, it's hard to get everybody together regularly, so this needs to be a one shot game.

Any suggestions?

edit: I probably didn't make this clear initially but we are looking to move to a game of a lot more complexity than A&A.
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David Douglas
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Re: Need a replacement for Axis and Allies (5 or 6 players)
The original Third Reich (or even A3R) seems like a good fit here.

WiF/A World at War gets too complicated and big for what you're looking for from what you're saying.
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Ubergeek
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Re: Need a replacement for Axis and Allies (5 or 6 players)
Quartermaster General
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thenew stanpede
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Re: Need a replacement for Axis and Allies (5 or 6 players)
ddavidc wrote:
The original Third Reich (or even A3R) seems like a good fit here.

WiF/A World at War gets too complicated and big for what you're looking for from what you're saying.


Thanks! Did you mean John Prados' Third Reich or Rise and Decline of the Third Reich?

Yeah both WiF and WaW are primarily too long for what we are looking for. I think we can handle more complexity or even extreme complexity down the road. But I don't ever envision we will have the time to play WiF, unfortunately.

Walt Mulder wrote:


Thanks! The bgg page says that Quartermaster General is a 90 min game. Is that accurate? We're looking for something more on the order of 6-9 hours.
 
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David Douglas
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Re: Need a replacement for Axis and Allies (5 or 6 players)
Rise and Decline. You can find great copies under $20. A World at War is actually just a super complex evolved version of that game. I'm not sure how it plays with more than 4 though.

Advanced 3rd Reich with the Rising Sun expansion would add more room for players at the expense of being larger and a bit more complex with the naval rules, technology, etc. Worth investigating though.
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thenew stanpede
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Re: Need a replacement for Axis and Allies (5 or 6 players)
ddavidc wrote:
Rise and Decline.



The bgg page for Rise and Decline says that the playtime for the game is 1440 minutes, which means that it can't be reasonably played in just one day. Is that accurate? Apparently the John Prados version is playable in 360 min. Do you know anything about the differences between these games?
 
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Ronald EMCA LADD
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Although not a hex and chit game, you could probably pick up a copy of the old game Supremacy. It is a world conquest game with abstract military forces and a stock market to control the economics of the game. Plus there are little plastic nuclear mushroom clouds and a bunch of expansions that might interest you and your friends as well.
 
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JP Laurio
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+1 for Rise and Decline of the Third Reich, used to play it alot and loved it. Never played the Prados version so cannot compare unfortunately.
 
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Mike Richardson
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Few ideas here...

http://boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/52231/multiplayer-wargames

I would be inclined to check out The Republic of Rome.

If you want a more recent global WWII game, I picked this one up not long ago...

Blitz! A World in Conflict

WiF lite I suppose you could call it. If you enjoyed Axis and Allies this is a very good next step as a multi player WWII global game.
It has really neat optional rules for varying what happens in the years leading up to the start of WWII.

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Russ Williams
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Offbeat suggestion: Victory: The Blocks of War is a Columbia Games block game (fog of war and step reduction) with WW2 style units but fictional geography on geomorphic maps, so is very flexible in scenario generation, and you can buy additional colors of blocks for up to 6 players. Its BGG forum has some session reports of people enjoying big multiplayer games of it. (I've only played it 2-player and enjoy it, hoping to play multiplayer sometime.) Pretty straightforward simple rules.
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thenew stanpede
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norev wrote:
+1 for Rise and Decline of the Third Reich, used to play it alot and loved it.


yea, Rise and Decline of the Third Reich is starting to rapidly make its way to the top of my list. But with a playtime of 1440 minutes, is it really possible to make it through this game in one day?
 
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David Douglas
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The 1440 minutes = 24 hours. BGG is suggesting that each turn of the 24 turn campaign game lasts an hour. Unless my memory is failing me at a relatively young age I don't recall basic 3R turns being that long, particularly with more players to move things along.

There are also shorter scenarios, different start date variants, and (like most wargames) almost every game of 3R I've ever played was called early when a victor became apparent.
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David Douglas
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Until every one knows the rules well and/it if your group gets distracted easily I could see it lasting that long though. But if you guys are going to repeat play it for some time then you should be good. And your German player needs to be the fastest.
 
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thenew stanpede
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Thanks David, I think we have a winner here. I'm still open to suggestions but I just downloaded the 4.5 rulebook for Rise and Decline and I'm digging through it now.
 
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Mike Richardson
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If you are going to go down the Third Reich route, and I have fond memories of 3R myself as it was my first ever wargame in 1983, I would consider Advanced Third Reich otherwise you are going to be playing a monster game which doesn't model diplomacy or research (A3R does).

And it is a big, monster game from 30 years ago. In my view, a little dated now. Consider carefully if you want to invest a huge amount of time learning the vast rulebook or if there is something which constitutes a better use of your investment in time.
 
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brant G
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norev wrote:
+1 for Rise and Decline of the Third Reich, used to play it alot and loved it. Never played the Prados version so cannot compare unfortunately.


Uh, Prados designed Rise and Decline of the Third Reich. He also redesigned/updated the later one that also bears his name in the title.
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E Butler
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Another +1 for Third Reich (4th edition). One of the few games that legitimately can be called a classic, with good reason.

There are three scenarios and the campaign game. Scenarios are shorter.

Also
Be sure to buy either third edition or fourth edition copy, not a first or second edition.

I've also heard good things about John Pardos' Third Reich, but I've never played it.


If you can get that many people together you might also want to consider Diplomacy.


*EDIT* I piled on the 3R bandwagon because 3R is such a great game, but I just went back and reread your original post. Rise and Decline of the Third Reich might not be the game you are looking for. It is a 'team' game in multiplayer, but each individual player has a different set of victory conditions. A big part of the fun in multi-player is trying to fulfil your country's victory conditions while trying to keep your enemies (and sometimes your allies) from fulfilling theirs.... and oh yea, there's a war to win.

Same issue with Diplomacy, except it is even more a 'last man standing' victory game.




If you know A&A why not move up to Axis & Allies WWI , seems like that would fit all your criteria.
 
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Jon Gautier

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You might try The Napoleonic Wars (Second Edition). I don't care for it but it is very popular and mostly fits your criteria (plays 5).

Struggle of Empires might also be a good choice. An offbeat suggestion would be for Russian Civil War 1918-1922 (second edition), although I don't know about replay value.

Not sure about Here I Stand and Virgin Queen. They check a lot of your boxes, but may be too involved or obscure for your group.

Good luck.

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Leo Zappa
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moonglum01 wrote:

Another +1 for Third Reich (4th edition). One of the few games that legitimately can be called a classic, with good reason.

There are three scenarios and the campaign game. Scenarios are shorter.

Also
Be sure to buy either third edition or fourth edition copy, not a first or second edition.

I've also heard good things about John Pardos' Third Reich, but I've never played it.


If you can get that many people together you might also want to consider Diplomacy.



Rise and Decline of the Third Reich is great and I've played several games of it to completion in the last couple of years. However, be aware that you could only hope to play one of the shorter scenarios (such as the 1944 scenario) to completion in a 6-9 hour sitting. There's no way a group could ever finish the campaign game (1939-1945) in that time frame.
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Trent Garner
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I would recommend Asia Engulfed and Europe Engulfed as meeting your needs quite adequately. Asia Engulfed includes the official rules for combining the two, so you can play the entirety of WWII using this game system. The rules are much more in depth and major units are blocks, providing for limited FOW, which keeps things more interesting, IMHO.



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Walt MacEachern
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Hasn't been mentioned yet, but Imperial might be just what you're looking for!
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Tom
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I recommend that you consider the Memoir '44 game system, especially the Operation Overlord expansion that furnishes rules for multiple players. It is not more complex than A&A, has many expansions, has hundreds of scenarios, and is a hoot to play.
 
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Jon Gautier

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Almost forgot about Cataclysm: A Second World War, which should be coming out soon. It supports 5 players. Good fun.

I don't think anyone is playing combined EE and AE in 9 hours, by the way.
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Stephen Sekela
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Dieroll Honker wrote:


Struggle of Empires might also be a good choice.



Along those same lines, Conquest of the Empire might appeal to your group if you're willing to veer from the WWII theme. Although it's an "everyone for themselves" game, there is an interesting alliance system (which changes from round to round), and the Roman Empire theme might be accessible/engaging for non-history buffs.

There are two ways to play it - the "classic" version (think A&A but everyone fighting everyone), and a CotE II version, which is based off of the Stuggle of Empires system. There's a lot more going on in that game than just simple "buy stuff and fight your enemies".

Even with players who were familiar with the game, I don't think we ever had a session (with 5 or 6 players) that lasted less than 4 hrs The game is kind of pricey, but it has BEAUTIFUL production value.

As a side suggestion, have you ever tried/heard of Dust? I've never played it, but always wanted to. It seems like a small step up from A&A in terms of complexity. It's world-wide strategy wargame set in a cool steam-punk/post-apocalyptic era which your group may (or may not) find enjoyable.

Good luck and happy gaming!
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Michael Rinella
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If the complexity level your friends are used to is Axis and Allies the best bet is Quartermaster General imo. Just play more than once and switch sides.
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