Recommend
 
 Thumb up
 Hide
30 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

No Retreat! Italian Front: 1943-45» Forums » Rules

Subject: Counterblow generated in combat initiated by a counterblow rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
When I play the Allies, I'm blowing a lot of cards to generate counterblows in order to get CA without terrain shifts and hopefully crack the german nut.

Quite often, such CA ends up with a CB result (1/6 in fact).
As this happens during the german phase, the CB should be put on a german stack. This will give the Allies the opportunity to attack again during his turn (even with white units) and without terrain shifts. Obviously a very good outcome. But then I wondered if I was allowed to take a german CB marker ?

It is said in 14.7.4 third bullet that the CB marker should come from "flipping the target marker". This is why the shock target cannot generate counterblow.

Should I use the same logic when it comes to battle initiated by a counterblow ? No target marker to flip => no final counterblow possible?

Same question about an attack on a german counterblow : can this result into a allied counterblow ?

This affects play balance a bit, as combat-generated counterblows are most of the time beneficial to the Allies.

It would also be good to make it a simple consistant rule :
- always flip the target marker, no target or shock target = no final CB.
- always take from stock, even if shock target. As a play balance, the german player could choose to use his shock CB.

Thoughts ?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:
When I play the Allies, I'm blowing a lot of cards to generate counterblows in order to get CA without terrain shifts and hopefully crack the german nut.

Good idea. meeple

Torc wrote:

Quite often, such CA ends up with a CB result (1/6 in fact).
As this happens during the german phase, the CB should be put on a german stack. This will give the Allies the opportunity to attack again during his turn (even with white units) and without terrain shifts. Obviously a very good outcome. But then I wondered if I was allowed to take a german CB marker ?

Yes. German Counterblow markers ALWAYS go on German units, and Allied Counterblows on Allied units. If the German attack was caused by an Allied CB marker, just fish out a German CB marker to use.

Torc wrote:

It is said in 14.7.4 third bullet that the CB marker should come from "flipping the target marker". This is why the shock target cannot generate counterblow.
Should I use the same logic when it comes to battle initiated by a counterblow ? No target marker to flip => no final counterblow possible?

No, sine this was not a Target market, just use any available German "CB" marker. In the rare case where you don't have any available, then treat the combat result as a "-) (No effect).

Torc wrote:

Same question about an attack on a german counterblow : can this result into a allied counterblow ?

Yes.

Torc wrote:

It would also be good to make it a simple consistant rule :
- always flip the target marker, no target or shock target = no final CB.
- always take from stock, even if shock target. As a play balance, the german player could choose to use his shock CB.

Interesting house rule. I have no qualms about it but it will not make it into the official rules, sorry.

A recap on the way the rules work for Counterblows:

- You always flip a Target marker.
- If a target marker has no "Counterblow" side the Combat is "No Effect".
- If the battle was caused by a Counterblow marker (thus you cannot flip it), use any available regular Counterblow marker of the Phasing Player side; if none are available, treat the combat result as "-" no effect.

P.S: Sorry for the late answer I was on Vacation with little internet access.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Thanks.
After several try at the Diadem scenario, that's the way I played it.

However, I see absolutely no way to win this scenario without the Juin card in the starting hand.
I wonder if I'm playing the forts in combat correctly.

The final answer to this question is given by Carl way way down this thread. You don't have to read all the posts, or your mind will blow

As far as I can tell :

1) Fort under a german CB : no strenght bonus, no shift, no loss effect.

Yeah! but can only happen after the german was forced to do an attack hence the second case.

2) Fort against an allied CB :
strenght bonus, no shift, no loss effect.

Not too bad, but will get a CB only 1/6, most of the time you will get CA or CR, hence the third case.


3) Fort against an allied CA :
strenght bonus, shift and loss effect.

Ouch ! I wonder if I'm playing this right. Or is it only the "non terrain" shift ?

4) Fort in a german CA : no strenght bonus, no shift, no loss effect.

Rules are quite clear on that one. Getting EX/CR against a fort is very good : already took a loss and german get a step loss and then is forced to CA without the benefit of the fort. Good chance of getting a CA in return, back to the previous case.

And one last question : what happens is an empty fort is adjacent to a CB ? Is it resolved as an attack with only the strenght bonus of the fort ? Can the empty fort be counterattacked ?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:

And one last question : what happens is an empty fort is adjacent to a CB ? Is it resolved as an attack with only the strenght bonus of the fort ? Can the empty fort be counterattacked ?

It is only a marker, so no combat happens, it only adds to another unit's value (thus the "+" sign on the unit). In the next Allied movement phase the Allied troops will probably move over it and destroy it.

Do not forget that in last may updated rules, a correction was made to the Fort rules to stop a gimmicky tactic of moving out german units and adding in a new ones back in the reserve phase after combat.(that correction was forgotten as in the early version of the Game forts WERE units, like in No Retreat! The North African Front):

Page 31, rule 22.1, 8th Bullet:

German units from the Reserves Box can redeploy on its
hex even if adjacent to enemy units (see 10.0.B, 16.1)

if the fort already contains a German unit.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Yes, I saw that one.

Do I have the third case (fort against allied CA) right ?
I would have said the fort is not involved (it's a marker and he was not involved in the german attack to start with anyway), but he is still present in the hex, so only the "non terrain" shift would happen.
But you ruled otherwise in a previous post (ie : all effects apply).

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:
Thanks.
After several try at the Diadem scenario, that's the way I played it.

However, I see absolutely no way to win this scenario without the Juin card in the starting hand.

Yes the scenario is not that easy at first, but after some experience I would say it's about 50/50.

Say, are you using the May 2016 "Living Rules"? There WAs a correction to that scenario. Page 10 of the new playbook, sections 15, 18 and 19. meeple

http://www.gmtgames.com/noretreat4/NRIF_Playbook.pdf
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:
Yes, I saw that one.

Do I have the third case (fort against allied CA) right ?
I would have said the fort is not involved (it's a marker and he was not involved in the german attack to start with anyway), but he is still present in the hex, so only the "non terrain" shift would happen.
But you ruled otherwise in a previous post (ie : all effects apply).


If the Fort marker is not involved in the combat, then it is NOT counted for ANYTHING (remember it's not terrain, it affects the combat in its hex only if part of the said combat): No shifts, no strength bonuses, no special step loss.

So if the Germans attack the Allies (using a Target marker), the Fort not attacking so not participating in the combat, then that Fort has no influence at all in that battle: in effect, the Germans are "attacking out" of their fortified positions, and the Allies here are Counterattacking them in the ground between both hexes.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:

1) Fort under a german CB : no strenght bonus, no shift, no loss effect.

Correct.

Torc wrote:

2) Fort against an allied CB : strenght bonus, no shift, no loss effect.

Correct.

Torc wrote:

3) Fort against an allied CA : strenght bonus, shift and loss effect.

Correct, but only if the Fort was part of the original combat.

If the Fort was not part of the original combat you would then have: no strenght bonus, no shift, no loss effect.

Torc wrote:

4) Fort in a german CA : no strenght bonus, no shift, no loss effect.

Correct, but only if the Fort was part of the original combat.

Suppose that the Fort was defending with another German unit, it must counterattack with it, you would then have: strenght bonus, no shift, no loss effect.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Great. Now I see the logic.

Fort is white unit, so if under a german CB, it is not in the combat and will not be involved in whatever CA that may follow. I don't add the fort as if the combat went back to it.
The germans went out for this fight => no fort at all.

But a fort is allowed to participate against an allied CB, adding its bonus strenght to another german unit. However, the combat takes place in the allied unit hex (no shift) and the fort is not the defender (no loss).
The allies infiltrated (they don't get their defensive terrain bonus but they don't suffer the full effect of the fort either).

I saw the Living Rules Playbook. My eyes were not good enough so I didn't see that the 2 - 6 north of Anzio was the 60th PzGren, I thought it was the 3rd. So I had almost the right unit mix. I used the double shift shock markers on first weekly turn but I never went as far as turn 15 to use it again with the Allied Major Offensive bonus (Operation Olive). Not being able to step a foot near Rome during turn 11 cost the Allies 3 VP at the start of turn 12 ...
Now that I have the correct rules for counterattacking a fort, it might turn out differently though. devil

Or I could slip Alphonse Juin in my starting hand and replay history. laugh
1 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:

Or I could slip Alphonse Juin in my starting hand and replay history. laugh

Ahhhh... There is value to that request. You do have to shout "Vive la France" to use the card, of course! I do like the idea, and should have thought about it when making the scenario. Shame on me! blush

BTW Loïc, I lived for over 5 years in Rocquencourt, near Versailles, and not far from Vitry-Sur-Seine, where you are currently living: I went there about a dozen times in fact, but that was a while ago.

Et à ne pas oublier, publié bientôt:

No Retreat! Polish & French Fronts meeple
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
J'ai commandé NR3 bien sûr

Maintenant que j'ai mieux compris l'impact des forts dans les contre-attaques, j'ai recommencé le scénario :

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1602302/operation-diade...
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lukas Kotek
Czech Republic
Prague
flag msg tools
Hi,

this is interesting discussion here. Loic, could just clarify what you mean by: 3) Fort against an alied CA? That means that fort is located in a hex where allies are counterattacking into?

If yes, I would say that Fort does not contribute strenght bonus because Fort is MARKER not UNIT and you may continue in CA situation only with UNITS. However there is shift and loss efect since fort feature is below red line on TEC.

I would refer to similar discussions with Carl here:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1573306/forts-and-count...

and here

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1570608/counterattack-f...

Cheers
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Lukas Kotek
Czech Republic
Prague
flag msg tools
licinius wrote:
Torc wrote:
Thanks.
After several try at the Diadem scenario, that's the way I played it.

However, I see absolutely no way to win this scenario without the Juin card in the starting hand.

Yes the scenario is not that easy at first, but after some experience I would say it's about 50/50.

Say, are you using the May 2016 "Living Rules"? There WAs a correction to that scenario. Page 10 of the new playbook, sections 15, 18 and 19. meeple

http://www.gmtgames.com/noretreat4/NRIF_Playbook.pdf

Believe me, I have played Diadem for more than six times and never won as Allied. I play NR from Russia to Desert but this front is terrific. Last time I missed new rule from current living rule book. Dont remember exact paragraph number but it says that if Germans use tenacious defense capability and unit is lost, it goes to surrender box and Allies earn 1 VP. I have to try this scenario again
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
chomski wrote:
Hi,

this is interesting discussion here. Loic, could just clarify what you mean by: 3) Fort against an alied CA? That means that fort is located in a hex where allies are counterattacking into?

If yes, I would say that Fort does not contribute strenght bonus because Fort is MARKER not UNIT and you may continue in CA situation only with UNITS. However there is shift and loss efect since fort feature is below red line on TEC.

I would refer to similar discussions with Carl here:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1573306/forts-and-count...

and here

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1570608/counterattack-f...

Cheers

Well, I have tried to wrap my head around the various situation. It can't be more complicated than riverine combat in For the People...

I came up with 4 rules I'm quite sure about, but I need a fifth one.

1) When a fort is in the battle hex and german is the defender, defense shift and loss effect always occur because it's a non terrain effect.

2) When the fort is not in the battle hex or the german is not the defender, defense shift and loss effect don't occur.

For those rules, remember that roles shift between attacker and defender during a CA, but no the battle hex.

3) Forts are white strenght, their bonus strenght doesn't contribute under CB but contribute against CB.

4) Forts are not units, their bonus strenght doesn't contribute in CA.

5 option 1) And there is no other rule.

5 option 2) When its bonus strenght doesn't contribute, the fort has no effect even if present in the hex.

5 option 3) When its bonus strenght didn't contribute at the start of the battle, the fort has no effect even if present in the hex.



Rule 5 is the tricky one.

With option 1, you get shift and loss effect when attacking a fort under CB. Carl ruled against that. The Germans are in fact "attacking" (we could also add a rule that a "defender" under a CB doesn't gain "defensive" benefit, but it would probably create other problems).

With option 2, you get no shift and loss effect when attacking a fort under a CB, but also no shift and loss effect when there is a counter/counter attack against a fort during an allied attack.
In fact it's just like moving the fort effect above the red line.

With option 3, you get no shift and loss effect when attacking a fort under a CB, but you get shift and loss effect in the counter/counter attack situation.

Option 1 is simple, but far too bloody. Unless we add: loss effect can happen only once in a Battle phase.

Option 2 is simple too, and it gives the Allies a break.

Option 3 makes a difference betwen CA and CB, it's complicated.

If Carl makes a definitive ruling, I will post it at start of my session report.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:
Thanks.
After several try at the Diadem scenario, that's the way I played it.

However, I see absolutely no way to win this scenario without the Juin card in the starting hand.

chomski wrote:

Believe me, I have played Diadem for more than six times and never won as Allied.

Well, here is an extensive session report here where the Allies won hands down:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1602302/operation-diade...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:

5 option 1) And there is no other rule.

5 option 2) When its bonus strenght doesn't contribute, the fort has no effect even if present in the hex.

5 option 3) When its bonus strenght didn't contribute at the start of the battle, the fort has no effect even if present in the hex.

[/b]

Rule 5 is the tricky one.

With option 1, you get shift and loss effect when attacking a fort under CB. Carl ruled against that. The Germans are in fact "attacking" (we could also add a rule that a "defender" under a CB doesn't gain "defensive" benefit, but it would probably create other problems).

With option 2, you get no shift and loss effect when attacking a fort under a CB, but also no shift and loss effect when there is a counter/counter attack against a fort during an allied attack.
In fact it's just like moving the fort effect above the red line.

With option 3, you get no shift and loss effect when attacking a fort under a CB, but you get shift and loss effect in the counter/counter attack situation.

Option 1 is simple, but far too bloody. Unless we add: loss effect can happen only once in a Battle phase.

Option 2 is simple too, and it gives the Allies a break.

Option 3 makes a difference betwen CA and CB, it's complicated.

If Carl makes a definitive ruling, I will post it at start of my session report.

Ok what is happening here in the game? This is a special case (counterblow caused by a counterblow).

1- You have Germans (with a Fort) attacking Allied units under a Counterblow (the Allies are in fact kind of attacking here).

2- If you get a "CB" counterblow result, ALL the attacking Germans are put under the CB counter, fort included if it did attack (in a voluntary placement of a Counterblow counter this cannot happen as the fort has a white combat factor).

3- Then YES the Allies next turn HAVE TO attack that whole stack, and the Fort counts for all effects (but not the terrain in the hex of course).

The game system considers here that it's still an allied attack/spoiling attack that the Germans responded successfully to. The combat is in a state of flux in both hexes. If the Allies don't want to suffer the consequences of that "Counterblow marker with a Fort" they they just have to break contact with that stack in their own turn.

So if you follow the game rules to the letter Option 1 is the right answer. It's "far too bloody"? I don't think so, the Allies don't have to attack, they can just withdraw one hex, They have a choice.

ONE THING NOT TO FORGET:

The loss effects of a Fort happen ONCE in a combat phase, at the end of each complete combat; not once in an exchange of attacks/counter-attacks, as staded in this rule below

[14.7.2] Marker-Caused Step Losses:

Certain mark- ers will cause extra losses when involved in combat as explained on the CRT:

• If a Fort marker is defending in the combat,the combat will cause at least one Attacker step loss on a black- colored combat result.
• If the Attacker uses a Shock-Target marker,the combat will cause at least one Attacker step loss if the Defender did not retreat out of the attacked hex.

• All these conditions are checked and put in effect after any Counterattack combats and CB Table combats are done, if any.

IMPORTANT! Both conditions above (Fort on a black result + Shock-Target and no retreat) are not cumulative, so they will not cause more than one Loss in a combat
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Ah great! So the step loss is assessed at the end of the whole exchange !
EX/CR makes that step loss. I thought I had it all wrong.
In fact I probably played it wrong with the shock target.

Let me sum it up once and for all (hopefully).

1) When a fort is in the battle hex and german is the defender, defense shift and loss effect always occur because it's a non terrain effect.

2) When the fort is not in the battle hex or the german is not the defender, defense shift and loss effect don't occur.

For those rules, remember that roles shift between attacker and defender during a CA, but not the battle hex.

3) Forts are white strenght, their bonus strenght doesn't contribute under CB but contribute against CB.

4) Forts are not units, their bonus strenght doesn't contribute in CA.

5) If there was a loss effect, apply it only once at the end of the whole battle sequence (including all CA). If one step loss occured during the battle, no more step loss is mandatory.

And about CB:
- You always flip a Target marker.
- If a Target marker has no "Counterblow" side the Combat is "No Effect".
- If the battle was caused by a Counterblow marker (thus you cannot flip it), use any available regular Counterblow marker of the Phasing Player side. If none are available, treat the combat result as "No Effect".


I will review my session report to remove any inconsistencies (not that I believe someone will check all the combats).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
chomski wrote:

Believe me, I have played Diadem for more than six times and never won as Allied.

licinius wrote:

Well, here is an extensive session report here where the Allies won hands down:

https://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/1602302/operation-diade...

Actually Operation Diadem proper was a failure.
Allies won later, and that was quite close.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:
Ah great! So the step loss is assessed at the end of the whole exchange !
EX/CR makes that step loss.

Correct, just one step loss.

Torc wrote:

Let me sum it up once and for all (hopefully).

1) When a fort is in the battle hex and german is the defender, defense shift and loss effect always occur because it's a non terrain effect.

Well, only if the Fort is included in the battle. If it is in the hex and not in the battle you don't take it into account.

Torc wrote:

2) When the fort is not in the battle hex or the german is not the defender, defense shift and loss effect don't occur.

Yes and no. If the fort is included in the battle the defense shift and loss effect does not occur. I don't understand what you mean exactly by "not in the Battle hex".

Torc wrote:

For those rules, remember that roles shift between attacker and defender during a CA, but not the battle hex.

3) Forts are white strenght, their bonus strenght doesn't contribute under CB but contribute against CB.

I don't think I fully understand what you mean by this.

Forts contribute to a CB if they are included in the battle. This can happen many ways: Responding to an enemy counterblow marker (this allows white units to attack), or if they are under a counterblow themselves (this can happen if getting a CB result responding to an enemy CB).

Or Write it in French, dammit!!! surprise

Torc wrote:

4) Forts are not units, their bonus strenght doesn't contribute in CA.

Correct.

Torc wrote:

5) If there was a loss effect, apply it only once at the end of the whole battle sequence (including all CA). If one step loss occured during the battle, no more step loss is mandatory.

Correct.

Torc wrote:

And about CB:
- You always flip a Target marker.
- If a Target marker has no "Counterblow" side the Combat is "No Effect".
- If the battle was caused by a Counterblow marker (thus you cannot flip it), use any available regular Counterblow marker of the Phasing Player side. If none are available, treat the combat result as "No Effect".


Correct.

Note that I have better explained this in the just released 3rd edition rules of No Retreat! The Russian Front

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
licinius wrote:
Torc wrote:


1) When a fort is in the battle hex and german is the defender, defense shift and loss effect always occur because it's a non terrain effect.

Well, only if the Fort is included in the battle. If it is in the hex and not in the battle you don't take it into account.

What do you mean by "included" ? Is a fort "not included" in a CA ? Is a fort "not included" under a german CB ? That's the crux of the matter. I try to sum it up at the end.

licinius wrote:

Torc wrote:

2) When the fort is not in the battle hex or the german is not the defender, defense shift and loss effect don't occur.

Yes and no. If the fort is included in the battle the defense shift and loss effect does not occur. I don't understand what you mean exactly by "not in the Battle hex".

A fort is "not in the Battle hex" when a unit stacked with it reacts to an Allied CB.

licinius wrote:

Torc wrote:

For those rules, remember that roles shift between attacker and defender during a CA, but not the battle hex.

3) Forts are white strenght, their bonus strenght doesn't contribute under CB but contribute against CB.

I don't think I fully understand what you mean by this.

Forts contribute to a CB if they are included in the battle. This can happen many ways: Responding to an enemy counterblow marker (this allows white units to attack), or if they are under a counterblow themselves (this can happen if getting a CB result responding to an enemy CB).

Under a German CB, they are not supposed to participate as they are "white". They are still "present in the battle hex".

licinius wrote:

Note that I have better explained this in the just released 3rd edition rules of No Retreat! The Russian Front

Never had problem with NR1.

But forts in NR4 are "not units" and provide "non terrain effects".
It makes it rather difficult to untangle.

Forts are not in CA (because "not units").

Regular terrain effects are not in CA either.

It's was not so clear what happens to those "non terrain effect" in CA, but it seems they are not applied because the fort is not included.
(ok, it's logical, the battle happens in between).

Forts under a german CB are a different case: they don't contribute (white strenght), but unlike CA, they are "in the battle" so we get those non-terrain effects.




 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:

Forts under a german CB are a different case: they don't contribute (white strenght), but unlike CA, they are "in the battle" so we get those non-terrain effects.

Well... Ok I perhaps have badly explained the rule a bit earlier (gasp) I was at work and kaindof "distracted"... So let's do this again:

GOOD ANSWER: In that case the forts are not in the battle. No combat effects at all.

Rule 14.1.2 second bullet is very clear:

• The non-Phasing player’s white-strength or Untried units/markers cannot participate in a Counterblow... whistle

So let's suppose, again that an Allied stack is under a counterblow, the German is the Phasing player and attacks with units and a Fort and get a "CB" result: You put a "Counterblow" on the German Stack.

Next player-trun (Allied), if the German stack is attacked, the fort is not used AT ALL. No effects. As it does not participate in the counterblow.

So your "OPTION 2" is correct:

"option 2) When its bonus strenght doesn't contribute, the fort has no effect even if present in the hex."
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Yeah!

So I got it right during the session report.

I'll put it at start.
1 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:
Yeah!

So I got it right during the session report.

I'll put it at start.

Yep.

Edit: a small article explaining all this should be put on. It,s not that complex, really, but I guess you can misunderstand the concept.

In simple terms:


- Forts cannot voluntarily attack, as they have a white strength value, but they can respond (attack) adjacent enemy units under counterblows (see rule 14.1.1)

- Forts under a Counterblow (CB) marker are never included in a battle, it's like they are not there, as they have a white strength value (see rule 14.1.2).

- Forts in a Counterattack (CA) are never included in a battle, it's like they are not there, as they are markers, not units (see rule 14.7.3).

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Loïc Boué
France
VITRY SUR SEINE
Val de Marne
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
If it was stated (on the TEC ?) that the defense shift and mandatory loss are not used if the fort does not participate, it would close all loopholes.



1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Paradis
Canada
Sainte-Thérèse
Québec
flag msg tools
badge
Avatar
mbmbmbmbmb
Torc wrote:

If it was stated (on the TEC ?) that the fort TEC effects are not used if the fort does not participate, I think it would close all loopholes.

Well,If the fort does not participate it does not participate, as stated here:

[14.6.5] Fort Defense Bonus: When a defending force includes a Fort marker it receives a bonus of one shift to the left on the CRT. This bonus can only be applied once per Battle re gardless of how many Fort markers participate.

[14.7.2] Marker-Caused Step Losses: Certain markers will cause extra losses when involved in combat as explained on the CRT:
If a Fort marker is defending in the combat,the combat will cause at least one Attacker step loss on a black- colored combat result.

BTW I recently added a precision on the TEC for the two different types of forts present in the upcoming No Retreat! Polish & French Fronts. So we had the same idea. meeple
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   |