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Subject: Nearly impossible for the Empire to win against a competent rebel player? rss

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Damian Allen
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It seems to me, that it is nearly impossible for the Empire to win against a competent Rebel player. Unless you get lucky and stumble on the Rebel base early, or the Rebel player makes a huge mistake. I say this for several reasons...

First, the game is rigged for the Rebellion to win by default. The Rebel player can literally fail every mission and objective, loose every battle, and not have any loyal planets, but as long as they have just one Rebel trooper on the Rebel base, then they win. Am I the only one who sees a huge problem with this?

Second, It's too easy for the Rebellion to score reputation, and there is no way for the Empire to reduce it. As I said above, the Rebels can be down to just one trooper on the rebel base and still win. How would that not lower reputation? Some reputation missions just involve destroying X Imperial units or scoring 3 points of damage. Making it impossible for the Empire to even attack without the Rebels completing those missions, pretty much by default in any counterattack.

Third, despite there being many things the Imperial player can do in the game, most of those things are a waste of time, causing you to loose the game. Since you can only draw two probe cards per turn, and only have a very limited number of ways to draw more (which you may fail), you must expand to as many systems as possible, every turn. In order to eliminate those systems as possibilities for the rebel base, or for relocating the Rebel base. This means every leader needs to be either on a mission to draw more probe cards, or moving forces to eliminate systems as possibilities. Using leaders for blocking, capturing, and other missions is cool, but it will probably loose you the game... because again, the game is rigged for the Rebels to win by default, and a competent Rebel player will probably get the reputation marker down to at least 8 or 9.

So as the Empire, if you use your leaders for missions to get more probe cards and move your forces, its helps to narrow down where the rebel base is more quickly, However, that gives the Rebel player a free hand to complete their objectives and gain reputation points, thereby shorting the time you have to find and destroy the Rebel base. But if you hold back leaders to oppose the rebel actions (which they may still succeed at), then you're not using them to move forces or attempt to get more probe cards. So you're dammed if you, and dammed if you don't... It's basically a no-win scenario for the Imperial player.

Lastly, the Rebellion is way overpowered in this game, compared to what they should be. Since the Imperial player must spread out throughout the board, it negates the Empires advantage in military forces. The Rebel player can often match the Empire in ground forces because the Imperial player can't wait 2 or 3 turns to mass enough forces for overwhelming force for every battle. I've heard many say that the base is usually found by round 8 or 9... but a competent Rebel player will likely have won on reputation by that point. So against a competent Rebel player, the Imperial player will likely have only 7-9 turns to find the Rebel base, consolidate enough forces to destroy it, and actually destroy it... before the Rebel player relocates it. That's barely enough time to move some forces to the rebel base, even if you knew where is was on turn 1.

Perhaps I'm completely wrong... but I'm seeing allot of Rebels winning 3 out of 4 games, 7 out of 8 games, and so on. It seems like its too easy for the Rebels to win, because they don't have to actually do anything to win. They just win by default as long as they have one Rebel trooper on the base. Even if they have nothing else on the board. Meanwhile the Empire must solely focus on expanding and the probe deck just to find the base in time. Making everything else on the Imperial side of the game unless in the long run.
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Derry Salewski
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Redwingedblackbird wrote:
It seems to me, that it is nearly impossible for the Empire to win against a competent Rebel player. Unless you get lucky and stumble on the Rebel base early, or the Rebel player makes a hug mistake. I say this for several reasons...

First, the game is rigged for the Rebellion to win by default. The rebel player can literally fail every mission and objective, loose every battle, and not have any loyal planets, but as long as they have just one trooper on the rebel base, then they win. Am I the only one who sees a huge problem with this?

Second, It's too easy for the Rebellion to score reputation, and there is no way for the Empire to reduce it. As I said above, the Rebels can be down to just one trooper on the rebel base and still win. How would that not lower reputation? Some reputation missions just involve destroying X imperial units or scoring 3 points of damage. Making it impossible for the empire to even attack without the rebels completing those missions, pretty much by default in any counterattack.

Third, despite there being many things the Imperial player can do in the game, most of those things are a waste of time, causing you to loose the game. Since you can only draw two probe cards per turn, and only have a very limited number of ways to draw more (which you may not even by successful at), you must expand to as many systems as possible, every turn. In order to eliminate those systems as possibilities for the rebel base, or for relocating the rebel base. This means every leader needs to be either on a mission to draw more probe cards, or moving forces to eliminate systems as possibilities. Using leaders for blocking, capturing, and other missions is cool, but it will probably loose you the game... because again, the game is rigged for the Rebels to win by default, and a competent Rebel player will probably get the reputation marker down to at least 8 or 9.

Lastly, the Rebellion is way overpowered in this game, compared to what they should be. Since the Imperial player must spread out throughout the board, it negates the Empires advantage in military forces. The rebel player can often match the empire in ground forces because the Imperial player can't wait 2 or 3 turns to mass enough forces for overwhelming force for every battle. I've heard many say that the base is usually found by round 8 or 9... but a competent Rebel player will likely have won on reputation by that point. So against a competent rebel player, the imperial player will likely have only 7-9 turns to find the rebel base, consolidate enough forces to destroy it, and actually destroy it... before the rebel player moves it. That's barely enough time to move some forces to the rebel base, even if you knew where is was on turn 1.

Perhaps I'm completely wrong... but I'm seeing allot of Rebels winning 3 out of 4 games, 7 out of 8 games, and so on. It seems like its too easy for the Rebels to win, because they don't have to actually do anything to win. They just win by default as long as they have one rebel trooper on the base. Even if they have nothing else on the board. Meanwhile the Empire must solely focus on expanding and the probe deck just to find the base in time. Making everything else on the Imperial side of the game unless in the long run.

1a) There's plenty of people claiming the exact opposite for you.

1) It's pretty hard to take you seriously when you say things that are completely false, like the rebels can win failing every mission and completing no objectives. They would be stomped into the ground every time in that scenario.

2) There are missions that reduce reputation. I feel like you've barely played this game . . .

3) Your Imperial Strategy post isn't very nuanced but you have at least identified the entire point of the game: finding the base and destroying it. You're right, why would you mess around with anything else? (though pretty much every imperial card is a way to find the base or destroy it, or clear your path to doing so.)

4) Play better. Sorry your friends are better at the game or whatever is happening here.

5) You're wrong. And why do you keep saying this "one rebel trooper on the base" thing. You don't need anything on the base to win. If your friend is reading this: quit leaving a trooper on the base; use it to attack this guy and win even faster!!
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László Horváth
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Rebels DID win this...
it's just being "historically" accurate
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Damian Allen
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First off... you are correct about the reputation. I forgot that the conbonite and Lure of the Dark Side cards lower reputation. However,both require you to have the card while having a captured leader, and one requires that that leader be Luke Skywalker. So if the Rebel player hasn't recruited him, then its impossible, even if you happen to get the card. If you haven't drawn the carbonate card, then its impossible. As for my one rebel trooper comment... My point was that the Rebels can win be simply holding the base, even if its with their last trooper.

Second... No need to be rude and condescending right from the start. I started this with a question mark in the title... as in asking a question. Then I began the post by saying "it seems to me", meaning that its just my opinion... and ended by saying "Perhaps I'm completely wrong", meaning that I knew that I could be completely wrong. So no need to be condescending in your reply. I sincerely hope that you do not reposed to people like this in real life, when you're not behind the safely of your keyboard.
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Since you have had one response that seemed to say you were stupid just for posting your opinion I will provide my opinion in hopefully not such a mean overhanded way.

I have not played this game enough with competent players to really know for sure about balance. I have played rebels most the time because the people I play with want to play empire. I have had 4 games against the same opponent and 2 games against another opponent. In all cases I have won as rebels. Some of them were easy wins and others were close tension filled last second wins (or should say seconds away from defeat).

From my 12 games of playing and/or teaching others (multiple opponents)the empire has only won 2 times. In one of those cases I would say the rebel player played poorly (too militaristic). The other win for the empire was just a welled played game on both sides that came down to a failed deathstar attack for the rebels and the empire finding and conquering the base on the other side of galaxy on same turn.

The game is fun win or lose and each time it fills like you pick up more strategy ideas. That being said I still have an initial feeling that if you have a good rebel player and good empire player that the rebel player has slight advantage.

In terms of the initial poster saying that there are no ways of reducing rebel reputation his response is not too far off (game dependent). Only the Lure of dark side card has a chance to lower reputation and that is only if it is Luke you turn. I do not believe there are any other cards that allow for reputation reduction (even thought for some reason i was thinking there might be one more but can not think of what it is so I assume it is just Lure of Dark Side).

I have seen many posts that say the empire is too strong and again I would not disagree with them based on their game play experience.

I am going to assume this game is balanced and it really comes down to play styles and group think. I think with a game this involved it will take several months (if not year) to really get a good idea of how balanced it is for the general game playing population.

Win or Lose this game has been a hit with everyone who played it and for such a long game these never seems to be an issue with players being bored.
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Damien
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I have a small sample size to add, but I won twice. Once on either side.
The player has a lot to do with it.
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Eric
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I think it's a sign of a pretty fantastic game when there are multiple threads complaining that both of the asymmetric sides are overpowered or unbeatable.

I think this game is pretty well balanced.
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Winning by a time mechanic does not rig the game. If you can't find and kill the rebel base in 14 rounds against your hypothetical no objective rebel player, something is seriously wrong with your play.

Your second point doesn't seem to take into account that the vast majority of combat objectives require the rebel player to initiate the battle in order to be completed.

I have mixed reactions to your third point. The empire player does get presented with a large number of distractions. You just need to keep your eye on the objective and make moves that get you closer to winning. Your mission deck may be full of shiny garbage, but nobody is forcing your to run them.

It honestly sounds to me like you are playing the imperials too much. If you want to get better as the empire, play as the rebels more. Once you know more about what objectives and missions the rebel player has access to, you can take your moves in such a way that make scoring objectives much harder without having to resist too many missions.
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Derry Salewski
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Redwingedblackbird wrote:
First off... you are correct about the reputation. I forgot that the conbonite and Lure of the Dark Side cards lower reputation. However,both require you to have the card while having a captured leader, and one requires that that leader be Luke Skywalker. So if the Rebel player hasn't recruited him, then its impossible, even if you happen to get the card. If you haven't drawn the carbonate card, then its impossible. As for my one rebel trooper comment... My point was that the Rebels can win be simply holding the base, even if its with their last trooper.

Second... No need to be rude and condescending right from the start. I started this with a question mark in the title... as in asking a question. Then I began the post by saying "it seems to me", meaning that its just my opinion... and ended by saying "Perhaps I'm completely wrong", meaning that I knew that I could be completely wrong. So no need to be condescending in your reply. I sincerely hope that you do not reposed to people like this in real life, when you're not behind the safely of your keyboard.

I addressed every one of your points.

If agreeing that someone is wrong is condescending then sure. "Blunt" is probably a more accurate word.

I am blunt when required in life. I assure you I would be equally safe in any situation with you, regardless of proximity or electronic input devices. Weird threats are looked at more harshly than blunt analysis of opinions on bgg, by the way, if you're new here.
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Damian Allen
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Thanks for the input... You're experience of the Empire only winning 2 out of 12 is what I've been hearing and experiencing for myself. Perhaps I should have added that given roughly equal players, I've gotten the impression that the Rebel player seems to win most of the time. So perhaps you need to be significantly more experienced and just a "better" overall player than your opponent, in order to win as the Empire?

I can see how some may think the Empire is overpowered... If you take the total forces, it definitely has a huge military advantage. However, most of those forces are usually spread too thin to be of much use, besides just holding systems. Most will be out of range if the rebel player puts their base in an outer region of the map, like far to one side. If the Rebel player put their base a more central location, then I can see the Imperial player being able to concentrate more forces, to where it would be overpowering.

I think the Empire has a huge advantage in forces, but the Rebels have an advantage in mission and objective cards. The difference being that the Rebel player can almost always play mission or objective cards. While the Empire can rarely concentrate its military power without needing a round or two for build up or movement prior to the attack. The Rebels also have far more cards that gain reputation, than the Empire does that lower it (only 2, and those are hard or impossible to achieve in many games).

But I agree that it's a fun game regardless of who wins... since there is almost no down time. Similar to Battlestar Galactica, where you are always doing or interacting with something, even if it is not your turn.
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Damian Allen
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I agree that if you can't win by 14 rounds, then there is something else wrong. But my overall point was that the Rebels don't have to actually accomplish any specific goals as prerequisite for winning. Most rebel players seem to get 3-5 reputation points. So the imperial players will often have only 7-9 rounds to win.

It's true that some of those Rebel objectives require them to initiate combat... But some of them are also pretty easy. Like just destroying Imperial units. Its allot easier for the rebels to gain reputation, than for the Empire to reduce it. I think it should be easier for the Rebels in that respect, but not quite that easy. I'd like to see even just one more card for the Empire that lowers reputation. Without needing to complete two missions or a capturing a specific rebel character than may not even be in the game.

You're right about the Imperial deck being full of "shinny garbage" that just distracts. I could be wrong, but I feel that the Rebel side has far more they can do without costing them the game. While the Imperial player must as you said, keep their eye on the objective, which makes the Imperial game much more of a do X, rinse, and repeat, affair.

I have played more Imperial games than the Rebels... so maybe playing more as the rebels will help, as you said. From you last point about knowing the objectives better by heart, it sounds like what I already suspect. That you need to know the cards better and be an overall better player than your opponent, to win as the Empire? I guess we'll see with time
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Damian Allen
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horlaci wrote:
Rebels DID win this...
it's just being "historically" accurate

I knew it... The whole game is a trap! lol.
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you have to be aggressive with the imperials;

kill rebel troops before they can concentrate

occupy as much planets as you can, not only to increase your production but also to lower the rebel's production and possible locations. there wont be much rebels to fight against if you occupy their production systems

you should keep about 4 imperial fleets and keep them as strong as possible so that you have the troops to take out the base when you come across it, so reinforcing your fleet is important, generally by placing units on the planet you subjugated this turn with the fleet.

try to leave a unit in each subjugated planet to avoid rebels moving there due to cards that let them move to empty systems.

if you use your fleets to systematically search the systems you should soon be cornering the rebels into a few systems with little to no options to move the base away.

other than that, the flow of the game really depends on which action cards/leaders/missions each side draws and plays.
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Jeff K
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I'd have to chime in to say that every single asymmetric wargame-style game that I have witnessed published over the last 12 years or so has had the exact same post made early on in the going.

I wouldn't get too worked up about this. Nobody has mastered all the intricacies of the game. It will come. In fact, history suggest that group think will swing back and forth several times on just which side is overpowered. It always happens, because the sides are asymmetric and powers don't match up. It is a natural tendency to react to that.

Eventually, we will all settle on the place where we realize the game is indeed balanced, or at most just needs a small tweak. It happens every time. Most folks just haven't mastered the strategies.

I'd also add that, a lot of time, these posts get negative reactions because they are premature. Let's not forget that what you are implying when you make posts like this, whether you realize it or not, is that the designer has no idea what they are doing and the playtesters are incompetent. Corey is a very well seasoned, veteran designer. Before I even played this game I was pretty sure the balance was carefully attended to, and I am pretty sure that is true for the most part now hat I have played. So relax...
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Redwingedblackbird wrote:
You're right about the Imperial deck being full of "shinny garbage" that just distracts.

The more I play, the more I don't think this is true. The difference is that the Rebels are drawing missions that they almost certainly want to play, while the Imperials are drawing a toolkit that they can use situationally to counter rebel play.

The Imperial ship projects help if you're low on space units. The Imperial Death Star projects help if the Rebels are overpowering you on the ground. The "Capture and Interrogate" missions help if the Rebels are entrenching on their planet - they let you build up a local force to kill their base, or force them to retreat without their army. The action denial cards (Lure of the Dark Side, etc.) can help you put lots of pressure in the early game on an overextending opponent. Meanwhile, some missions, like Display of Power and Imperial Propaganda, are always useful.

The Rebels need to play nearly all their missions and maximize their effectiveness. The Imperials need to pick and choose the right missions for the right circumstances.
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Damian Allen
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scifiantihero wrote:
Redwingedblackbird wrote:
First off... you are correct about the reputation. I forgot that the conbonite and Lure of the Dark Side cards lower reputation. However,both require you to have the card while having a captured leader, and one requires that that leader be Luke Skywalker. So if the Rebel player hasn't recruited him, then its impossible, even if you happen to get the card. If you haven't drawn the carbonate card, then its impossible. As for my one rebel trooper comment... My point was that the Rebels can win be simply holding the base, even if its with their last trooper.

Second... No need to be rude and condescending right from the start. I started this with a question mark in the title... as in asking a question. Then I began the post by saying "it seems to me", meaning that its just my opinion... and ended by saying "Perhaps I'm completely wrong", meaning that I knew that I could be completely wrong. So no need to be condescending in your reply. I sincerely hope that you do not reposed to people like this in real life, when you're not behind the safely of your keyboard.

I addressed every one of your points.

If agreeing that someone is wrong is condescending then sure. "Blunt" is probably a more accurate word.

I am blunt when required in life. I assure you I would be equally safe in any situation with you, regardless of proximity or electronic input devices. Weird threats are looked at more harshly than blunt analysis of opinions on big, by the way, if you're new here.

What does weird threats have anything to do with it? There were no threats, so how is that even relevant? Also, a person's status or time on the board does not negate them being rude or condescending.

I stated my opinion... including that I could be wrong. You replied with your opinion that I was wrong. Which is fine... except that you acted as though your opinion was an indisputable fact, and you were rude and condescending in doing it.

As for being "blunt when it is required in life"... this is an online forum for discussing board games, not an intervention. I stated my opinion, and even admitted therein that I could be completely wrong. That's hardly a situation that requires you to be blunt in your response, much less rude.

You also may want to consider the fact that I'm not the only one on this thread who thought you were rude...
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Redwingedblackbird wrote:

What does weird threats have anything to do with it? There were no threats, so how is that even relevant?

You said that he wouldn't talk this way if he wasn't "safely" behind his keyboard. While I don't think it was a threat - more a standard colloquialism for internet-tough-guy-ness - I can see how one could take it as a threat.

Quote:

I stated my opinion... including that I could be wrong.

Using hyperbolic language is the hallmark of someone who isn't going to change their opinion, even if they claim it. Most people will say, "I could be wrong..." with the subtext of, "...but almost certainly not.

When you said:
Quote:
First, the game is rigged for the Rebellion to win by default. The Rebel player can literally fail every mission and objective, loose every battle, and not have any loyal planets, but as long as they have just one Rebel trooper on the Rebel base, then they win. Am I the only one who sees a huge problem with this?

the language in there is so strong that I took you to be adding in the subtext of, "This isn't up for debate - I'm right, and any opposing point is wrong."

So, for me at least, your initial post came across as a bit arrogant, especially since there were some factually incorrect things in there. Because of that, I took Derry's response as more blunt than rude, but, then again, criticism I have offered people with positive intent has sometimes been viewed as rude, so this could just be a personality thing.

I'd also take a look at
Quote:
Thanks for the input... You're experience of the Empire only winning 2 out of 12 is what I've been hearing and experiencing for myself. Perhaps I should have added that given roughly equal players, I've gotten the impression that the Rebel player seems to win most of the time. So perhaps you need to be significantly more experienced and just a "better" overall player than your opponent, in order to win as the Empire?
. We tend to only listen to data that confirms our preconceived notions. As others have stated, there are plenty of, "Rebels can't win!" posts around here that it seems you're discounting because of your initial bias in favor of Rebel victory.

I've played about 15 games of this now, on both sides, with the wins about split between the two (one extra Rebel win). The FFG numbers are also pretty even. So I'd say you might get more bang for your buck with the question of, "What strategies can the Empire use to counteract what I view as a clear, strong Rebel strategy?" than, "Isn't it impossible for the Empire to win given these clear, strong Rebel strategies?" which is a very leading question.
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Derry Salewski
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Redwingedblackbird wrote:
scifiantihero wrote:
Redwingedblackbird wrote:
First off... you are correct about the reputation. I forgot that the conbonite and Lure of the Dark Side cards lower reputation. However,both require you to have the card while having a captured leader, and one requires that that leader be Luke Skywalker. So if the Rebel player hasn't recruited him, then its impossible, even if you happen to get the card. If you haven't drawn the carbonate card, then its impossible. As for my one rebel trooper comment... My point was that the Rebels can win be simply holding the base, even if its with their last trooper.

Second... No need to be rude and condescending right from the start. I started this with a question mark in the title... as in asking a question. Then I began the post by saying "it seems to me", meaning that its just my opinion... and ended by saying "Perhaps I'm completely wrong", meaning that I knew that I could be completely wrong. So no need to be condescending in your reply. I sincerely hope that you do not reposed to people like this in real life, when you're not behind the safely of your keyboard.

I addressed every one of your points.

If agreeing that someone is wrong is condescending then sure. "Blunt" is probably a more accurate word.

I am blunt when required in life. I assure you I would be equally safe in any situation with you, regardless of proximity or electronic input devices. Weird threats are looked at more harshly than blunt analysis of opinions on big, by the way, if you're new here.

What does weird threats have anything to do with it? There were no threats, so how is that even relevant? Also, a person's status or time on the board does not negate them being rude or condescending.

I stated my opinion... including that I could be wrong. You replied with your opinion that I was wrong. Which is fine... except that you acted as though your opinion was an indisputable fact, and you were rude and condescending in doing it.

As for being "blunt when it is required in life"... this is an online forum for discussing board games, not an intervention. I stated my opinion, and even admitted therein that I could be completely wrong. That's hardly a situation that requires you to be blunt in your response, much less rude.

You also may want to consider the fact that I'm not the only one on this thread who thought you were rude...

Implying someone is only safe under certain circumstances is weird. You may call it whatever you'd like. As I said, not worried.

Your points demonstrated you haven't followed much discussion here. They implied you hadn't seen all the game components. They offer little insight as to how you have played the game so far. They use rhetorical devices like hyperbole with no context which is basically useless for communication.

You can't really be surprised if you go "here's my opinion, it might be wrong" and someone says "yup."

When you offer nothing, you can't really except the "yup" to be much else, especially when you can trust that the first people to see your post are the ones who have read every other post about the game (subscribers) who really are using a lot more data points to make their "opinion."

I complimented you on the part of your post I thought showed the most knowledge. I demonstrated as much empathy as is really possible with no details from you (it's not much, but I am sorry you keep losing or your opponents are bad or whatever is happening here. My opponent and I have had very close, tense games. I wish you the same.)

While there's certainly nothing hugs and kisses about the post you'd be hard pressed to find much rudeness about it. It's all directly responding to things YOU said. I'm pretty sure if I was motivated enough to break your post up and just post my responses to the salient parts of your points, one by one, no one would be saying I was calling you stupid. (which, note, I didn't do. So you can take someone saying I did as affirmation you should be offended, but . . . didn't do it. So maybe you shouldn't.)

Where's that craig guy. I want to see how blunt or not he is.
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Damian Allen
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It's not the fact that you disagreed with me... that's why I asked the question, to get a discussion. It's that you were rude, condescending, and as another poster commented, made its sound as if I was stupid for posting my opinion. You're still being condescending by repeatedly assuming that I've lost every game, and then preceding to lecture me about those losses. Did I say that I lost every game? No... I did not, but you just assumed it.

As for not giving details... I did give details. I stated specific Imperial actions and the what they would cause. Such as playing more missions vs. just sticking to the probe deck and ship movements. Or how it is much easier for the rebels to gain reputation than it is for the empire to lower it, after you pointed out my original statement on imperials and reputation was wrong.

 
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Dmitry Vensko
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Redwingedblackbird wrote:

First, the game is rigged for the Rebellion to win by default. The Rebel player can literally fail every mission and objective, loose every battle, and not have any loyal planets, but as long as they have just one Rebel trooper on the Rebel base, then they win. Am I the only one who sees a huge problem with this?

There is no such problem. And Rebels are not programmed to win by default.

There is 32-1-5-1=25 cards at Probe deck at game start. So in ~12 turns Empire automatically discovers Rebel base location. So can we say that Empire is programmed to automatically win?

In reallity Empire may force that, Rebels can affect the process a little too, but most importantly Rebels try to control how many turns Empire has. They try to reduce that time.

So the question is how one or anther side succeeds in that.

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Second, It's too easy for the Rebellion to score reputation, and there is no way for the Empire to reduce it. As I said above, the Rebels can be down to just one trooper on the rebel base and still win. How would that not lower reputation? Some reputation missions just involve destroying X Imperial units or scoring 3 points of damage. Making it impossible for the Empire to even attack without the Rebels completing those missions, pretty much by default in any counterattack.

It's not that easy. For better Empire play you have to know Rebel Objectives deck precisely. There are many objectives Empire could fail. For example simply by retreating from a combat.

Quote:
Third, despite there being many things the Imperial player can do in the game, most of those things are a waste of time, causing you to loose the game. Since you can only draw two probe cards per turn, and only have a very limited number of ways to draw more (which you may fail), you must expand to as many systems as possible, every turn. In order to eliminate those systems as possibilities for the rebel base, or for relocating the Rebel base. This means every leader needs to be either on a mission to draw more probe cards, or moving forces to eliminate systems as possibilities. Using leaders for blocking, capturing, and other missions is cool, but it will probably loose you the game... because again, the game is rigged for the Rebels to win by default, and a competent Rebel player will probably get the reputation marker down to at least 8 or 9.

Too wrong on several points. Empire may capture planet, but not must. Empire can win capturing no single planet at all.

Rebels usually do not have many fleets to activate them, but in fact they may try such a strategy. The only thing they need - few x-wings. If Rebels blockade several empire planets with few x-wings - then Empire may need to react and spend no less actions, may be very ill-timed. Besides invading Empire planets relates to one of Rebel Objectives. This could be very effective move against Empire, but usually Rebels play missions instead.

Empire typically has more options. They can either play missions, or capture planets, or do mix of both.

Quote:
So as the Empire, if you use your leaders for missions to get more probe cards and move your forces, its helps to narrow down where the rebel base is more quickly, However, that gives the Rebel player a free hand to complete their objectives and gain reputation points, thereby shorting the time you have to find and destroy the Rebel base. But if you hold back leaders to oppose the rebel actions (which they may still succeed at), then you're not using them to move forces or attempt to get more probe cards. So you're dammed if you, and dammed if you don't... It's basically a no-win scenario for the Imperial player.

How on Earth could you spending just 1 action every turn to search for Probe deck fail to compete vs Rebel objectives?

As said earlier, if you spend every action to counter every Rebel action and succeed, then by turn 12 you know the rebel base location and may win or loose. Empire objective is to follow that way most effectively, failing most important Rebel actions.

Quote:
Lastly, the Rebellion is way overpowered in this game, compared to what they should be. Since the Imperial player must spread out throughout the board, it negates the Empires advantage in military forces. The Rebel player can often match the Empire in ground forces because the Imperial player can't wait 2 or 3 turns to mass enough forces for overwhelming force for every battle. I've heard many say that the base is usually found by round 8 or 9... but a competent Rebel player will likely have won on reputation by that point. So against a competent Rebel player, the Imperial player will likely have only 7-9 turns to find the Rebel base, consolidate enough forces to destroy it, and actually destroy it... before the Rebel player relocates it. That's barely enough time to move some forces to the rebel base, even if you knew where is was on turn 1.

Perhaps these Empire players do not know how to left strongest units in the queue, placing them only if needed to finish the base.

Quote:
Perhaps I'm completely wrong... but I'm seeing allot of Rebels winning 3 out of 4 games, 7 out of 8 games, and so on. It seems like its too easy for the Rebels to win, because they don't have to actually do anything to win. They just win by default as long as they have one Rebel trooper on the base. Even if they have nothing else on the board. Meanwhile the Empire must solely focus on expanding and the probe deck just to find the base in time. Making everything else on the Imperial side of the game unless in the long run.

> because they don't have to actually do anything to win

This is most funny conclusion I've seen around Rebellion.

I've only played 10 games of Rebellion with my son. 6 fisrt games were Rebels victory. We had lost any hope that Empire could win ever. Then last 4 games it was Empire victory.
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Joshua Schutte
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I agree with the OP that the Rebels will win more than they will lose, I don't think it's as one sided as they suggest. After our initial 5 learning games that went back on forth. Who ever has played the Rebellion has won 9 times in a row now. These games were close and the Empire did almost win in all them on an earlier turn to have the Rebel base move with only 1-2 units left. The game is very close, it does kind of suck that the Empire has many cool missions you should probably never do. I still love the game, it's defiantly not balanced once you get good at it, the Empire has a chance to win on turns 3 or 4 by blind luck some games. I like how the game ramps up from 4 to 8 leaders when teaching the game, sometimes I wish it started at full tilt.
 
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Redwingedblackbird wrote:
First, the game is rigged for the Rebellion to win by default. The Rebel player can literally fail every mission and objective, loose every battle, and not have any loyal planets, but as long as they have just one Rebel trooper on the Rebel base, then they win. Am I the only one who sees a huge problem with this?

That's basically completely false and you'll struggle to convince anyone to think otherwise. The Rebels have an inbuilt inevitability, that's correct - given enough time, they WILL win. But actually that's as much to do with balancing the game, not imbalancing it. If they didn't have that, the Empire would just take their sweet time finding the base and then it'd be the Imperials that are 'OP'.

Redwingedblackbird wrote:
Second, It's too easy for the Rebellion to score reputation, and there is no way for the Empire to reduce it. As I said above, the Rebels can be down to just one trooper on the rebel base and still win. How would that not lower reputation? Some reputation missions just involve destroying X Imperial units or scoring 3 points of damage. Making it impossible for the Empire to even attack without the Rebels completing those missions, pretty much by default in any counterattack.

There are ways to reduce it as has been said. And I'd beg to differ that it's too easy for the Rebels to score points. Some of the objectives are really difficult. And made even more difficult by the fact that the Imperial player can easily play around them.

- The objectives that care about controlling systems - the imperial player can just subjugate/gain loyalty - which they want to do anyway to gain resources/scout the base.

- The objectives that care about killing stuff - the imperial player can preemptively attack rebel fleets - making it much harder.

- The objectives that care about sabotage? Just do R&D.

- No captured leaders? Just capture someone

etc etc.

Redwingedblackbird wrote:
Third, despite there being many things the Imperial player can do in the game, most of those things are a waste of time, causing you to loose the game. Since you can only draw two probe cards per turn, and only have a very limited number of ways to draw more (which you may fail), you must expand to as many systems as possible, every turn. In order to eliminate those systems as possibilities for the rebel base, or for relocating the Rebel base. This means every leader needs to be either on a mission to draw more probe cards, or moving forces to eliminate systems as possibilities. Using leaders for blocking, capturing, and other missions is cool, but it will probably loose you the game... because again, the game is rigged for the Rebels to win by default, and a competent Rebel player will probably get the reputation marker down to at least 8 or 9.

So as the Empire, if you use your leaders for missions to get more probe cards and move your forces, its helps to narrow down where the rebel base is more quickly, However, that gives the Rebel player a free hand to complete their objectives and gain reputation points, thereby shorting the time you have to find and destroy the Rebel base. But if you hold back leaders to oppose the rebel actions (which they may still succeed at), then you're not using them to move forces or attempt to get more probe cards. So you're dammed if you, and dammed if you don't... It's basically a no-win scenario for the Imperial player.

That's not true. And your description of the pressures and push and pull perfectly encapsulates the awesome gameplay and tension at the heart of the game. It's from that tension that the gameplay sings, it's from that the balancing of the game comes from, it's from that tension that the excitement comes from. All the time, the game asks both players: "Will you get the balance right, between what you want to do and trying to stop your opponent?"

Do they want you to oppose that mission, because really they have something more important later in the command phase? Do you really need to be opposing, or would it be better to move another fleet?

Redwingedblackbird wrote:
Lastly, the Rebellion is way overpowered in this game, compared to what they should be. Since the Imperial player must spread out throughout the board, it negates the Empires advantage in military forces. The Rebel player can often match the Empire in ground forces because the Imperial player can't wait 2 or 3 turns to mass enough forces for overwhelming force for every battle. I've heard many say that the base is usually found by round 8 or 9... but a competent Rebel player will likely have won on reputation by that point. So against a competent Rebel player, the Imperial player will likely have only 7-9 turns to find the Rebel base, consolidate enough forces to destroy it, and actually destroy it... before the Rebel player relocates it. That's barely enough time to move some forces to the rebel base, even if you knew where is was on turn 1.

Well almost everywhere on the map is <3 spaces away from an imperial starting place. So that's 3 turns before you get to the base. Again, what you're describing, isn't actually a problem for most people, but is in fact the central tension of the game.
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Witold G
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Katowice
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Redwingedblackbird wrote:
First, the game is rigged for the Rebellion to win by default. The Rebel player can literally fail every mission and objective, loose every battle, and not have any loyal planets, but as long as they have just one Rebel trooper on the Rebel base, then they win.

Would you still say that the game is rigged in favour of the Rebels if the reputation marker started on space "30" of the time track?

...just pointing out the obvious flaw in this particular argument.
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Brook B
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I just purchased the game but have yet to play it. I have followed many discussions on both sides of the argument. Could it be that maybe the imperial strategy just takes longer "to get". So maybe the gameplay is skewed in the beginning as the imperial players take a little longer learning their strategies vs. the rebel player strategies being a little more obvious off the get go??

This is all just speculation and I just thought maybe could offer a possibility as to why it seems so skewed sometimes.

Thanks for any and all input
 
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In Time
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Just in our play sessions empire has never won but I've only played 4 games so far
 
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