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Subject: [Closed] Looking for 3 players for another player shuffle series (4 games) rss

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James Ataei
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Another fun thing would be to have a FAVOR factory game between Chaos Magicians and Ice Maidens and 2 other high favor factions. I'm guessing the next highest factions the routinely get the most Favors would be Engineers and maybe Auren, Darklings or Acolytes? I don't think it is uncommon to see Engineers with 4 favors at the end of the game. Auren should also have at least 3 or 4 favors if the SA needs to be built (3 hex TW or SH/SA scoring at the right time). Darklings should routinely get 3-4 a game and Acolytes should always get 3 minimum.
 
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James Ataei
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1869 wrote:
How did you decide that riverwalkers have to start blue?
Very bad color for them, with green they might have been competitive.

:read the topic emoticon:



The faction colors are decided by a random draw. Since all 4 players have to face the same conditions they are all handicapped equally.
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James Ataei
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Based on the 3 completed series of Player Shuffle games it seems that actual playing skill seems to win out. The faction picking skill is somewhat lost as thejordan pointed out after the first completed group of games.

This is probably why the first group of games ended like this:

1. JamesWolfpacker 21
2. TerraTurtle 10
3. DocCool 7
4. thejordan 2

TT's overall skill was definitely better than mine when this was played, but I think the uneven setup (faction placement and BON picks) partially led to this result. In addition the faction picking skill was lost.

The next group of games we picked factions before seeing the setup based on our personal faction preferences (except irish, who just picked a faction).

1. JamesWolfpacker 19 (Swarms)
2. PerOlander 13 (Fakirs)
3. DocCool 8 (Dwarves)
4. irishroar 0 (Cultists)

This is roughly the player order by rating.

DocCool banned me from the 3rd set of games. modest

1. kruppy 16 (TIE) PerOlander 16
3. DocCool 7
4. Flikkenstein 1

I'm sure one of the players already calculated who won by % score of winner, so I'll let them post it. Per's current rating is better than kruppy's and head to head Per leads 7-4 from 11 played together. If Per comes out ahead in this then the Player Rating/Skill is once again ruling the order of the 4 game series.

The 4th group of games started by Stones is currently in R1. It features more skill than any of the 3 previous groups as all players are either rated above 1300 or have advanced to at least Division 3 in the TM Tour so I'm very interested to see the results of this.

This is also why I want to play (now) 2 more sets of games where everyone sees the setup and picks a faction for all 4 players to play in that starting seat. The 4th type would be more similar to SillyWords WTC. All 4 games are the same setup, but each player starts in each seat and should simultaneously reveal their picks after a neutral person has received them for the 1st seat, 2nd seat, etc.
 
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James Ataei
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Something to keep in mind here is that when using this format it is very important to synchronize both the setup and the start of each round. The first set of games indicated that this was important. I know this because I TOOK ADVANTAGE OF THE NON-SYNCHRONIZATION OF SETUP!
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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A random draw is very bad for riverwalkers, they can be totally unplayable under certain conditions.

High favour games are just bad for CMs. They need 8 diffrent useful favors, any other faction only 4. Icemaidens will certainly take 4, engineers 3-5. To maximize take sa-sh scoring and te bonus 5th round.
 
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Per Olander
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the tiebreaker was very close too, percentage of winning score:
me: 93.9
kruppy: 93.4

another funny thing to evaluate, is points per faction:

acolytes: 15
giants: 14
nomads: 7
river walkers: 4

personally, I like giants alot, and even think they have some valuable differences to the nomads, though the nomads advantages are very good as well.
but people tend to see the nomads as 100% superior in any way, since they can still utilize 1-spade hexes, and start with a 3rd dwelling - what most people forget in favor of the giants, is:

SH cost 4w6c, nomads SH cost 4w8c
SH gives 4pw income, nomads SH gives only 2pw
3rd and 4th TP gives more pw for giants instead of more c for nomads (this is in most cases in favor of nomads, but not always)
and most important - giants SH ability can be used via shipping and bridges!
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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But nomads sh is optional while giants sh is a must.

With edge scoring giants are supirior because they can start in the middle and take edge by shipping.
 
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James Ataei
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1869 wrote:
A random draw is very bad for riverwalkers, they can be totally unplayable under certain conditions.

Oh yeah, I don't think anyone disputes that. The fact that all 4 players are stuck one game with them in the same starting seat makes it all even. Kruppy getting the RW to 2nd place in one game is a big display of skill.

1869 wrote:
High favour games are just bad for CMs. They need 8 diffrent useful favors, any other faction only 4. Icemaidens will certainly take 4, engineers 3-5. To maximize take sa-sh scoring and te bonus 5th round.

I agree, but I didn't say it would be good for CMs. Just that it would be fun/interesting to play a shuffle game with a bunch of high favor factions.
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
1869 wrote:
A random draw is very bad for riverwalkers, they can be totally unplayable under certain conditions.

Oh yeah, I don't think anyone disputes that. The fact that all 4 players are stuck one game with them in the same starting seat makes it all even. Kruppy getting the RW to 2nd place in one game is a big display of skill.

Bon8 as starting player gives Rw some options, if acolytes take bon8 and start with act2 as their first move, which is not a bad strategy for themselves you can forget about Rw.

JamesWolfpacker wrote:

1869 wrote:
High favour games are just bad for CMs. They need 8 diffrent useful favors, any other faction only 4. Icemaidens will certainly take 4, engineers 3-5. To maximize take sa-sh scoring and te bonus 5th round.

I agree, but I didn't say it would be good for CMs. Just that it would be fun/interesting to play a shuffle game with a bunch of high favor factions.

No fun for CMs
 
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Robert
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JamesWolfpacker wrote:
1869 wrote:
A random draw is very bad for riverwalkers, they can be totally unplayable under certain conditions.

Oh yeah, I don't think anyone disputes that. The fact that all 4 players are stuck one game with them in the same starting seat makes it all even. Kruppy getting the RW to 2nd place in one game is a big display of skill.
The Rw performance was mainly influenced by whether an opponent cut them in half by taking C2, or not. If cut, they got no network score and had a low chance for edge scoring. If connected, they had a chance to get a share of these 72 VPs.
 
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James Ataei
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DocCool wrote:
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
Kruppy getting the RW to 2nd place in one game is a big display of skill.
The Rw performance was mainly influenced by whether an opponent cut them in half by taking C2, or not. If cut, they got no network score and had a low chance for edge scoring. If connected, they had a chance to get a share of these 72 VPs.

That makes sense. I didn't fully analyze the games, but it's much easier for someone who went through it. Per and kruppy didn't get cut at C2 and finished 3rd and 2nd for RWs.
 
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Matthias Reitberger
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What if they start D5+A11?
I would try that, 3 green hexes in reach.
 
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Ola Caster
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DocCool wrote:
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
1869 wrote:
A random draw is very bad for riverwalkers, they can be totally unplayable under certain conditions.

Oh yeah, I don't think anyone disputes that. The fact that all 4 players are stuck one game with them in the same starting seat makes it all even. Kruppy getting the RW to 2nd place in one game is a big display of skill.
The Rw performance was mainly influenced by whether an opponent cut them in half by taking C2, or not. If cut, they got no network score and had a low chance for edge scoring. If connected, they had a chance to get a share of these 72 VPs.
Yes this is true, but you also have to take your chances. Consider flikkenstein's move here:

http://terra.snellman.net/game/PlayerShuffle11/max-row=87

The 5pw -> p conversion is possible to unlock grey and build c2.
 
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Robert
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kruppy wrote:

Yes this is true, but you also have to take your chances. Consider flikkenstein's move here:

http://terra.snellman.net/game/PlayerShuffle11/max-row=87
True. Same here:

http://terra.snellman.net/game/PlayerShuffle09/max-row=107

A volcano on C2 would have secured a bridge-free town and forced the Rw to unlock yellow, and then basically stay lonesome with expensive TPs in the west.
 
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GJ Flikweert
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DocCool wrote:
kruppy wrote:

Yes this is true, but you also have to take your chances. Consider flikkenstein's move here:

http://terra.snellman.net/game/PlayerShuffle11/max-row=87
True. Same here:

http://terra.snellman.net/game/PlayerShuffle09/max-row=107

A volcano on C2 would have secured a bridge-free town and forced the Rw to unlock yellow, and then basically stay lonesome with expensive TPs in the west.

Actually I did not have two bridge-free town opportunities anymore at that point. Had I taken C2 then I would have needed a bridge for my central town. And Rw could have connected by either unlocking red or yellow, so I didn't feel it would particularly hurt them to take C2. They basically ended up lonesome in the west either way and had to pay for two expensive TPs.

Granted I still played very poorly that game!
 
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GJ Flikweert
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kruppy wrote:
DocCool wrote:
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
1869 wrote:
A random draw is very bad for riverwalkers, they can be totally unplayable under certain conditions.

Oh yeah, I don't think anyone disputes that. The fact that all 4 players are stuck one game with them in the same starting seat makes it all even. Kruppy getting the RW to 2nd place in one game is a big display of skill.
The Rw performance was mainly influenced by whether an opponent cut them in half by taking C2, or not. If cut, they got no network score and had a low chance for edge scoring. If connected, they had a chance to get a share of these 72 VPs.
Yes this is true, but you also have to take your chances. Consider flikkenstein's move here:

http://terra.snellman.net/game/PlayerShuffle11/max-row=87

The 5pw -> p conversion is possible to unlock grey and build c2.

It would have hurt the Nomads, but would have also prevented me from building the temple the first round, while sacrificing a lot of power. Not sure I would have done much better by making that move. Is it possible to replay this game from that point forward, so I can see if I would have done better had I taken C2???

P.S. I think the major difference was the starting placement of Giants and Nomads. In PerOlander's Rw game they stayed away from the westside.
 
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Ola Caster
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Flikkenstein wrote:
kruppy wrote:
DocCool wrote:
JamesWolfpacker wrote:
1869 wrote:
A random draw is very bad for riverwalkers, they can be totally unplayable under certain conditions.

Oh yeah, I don't think anyone disputes that. The fact that all 4 players are stuck one game with them in the same starting seat makes it all even. Kruppy getting the RW to 2nd place in one game is a big display of skill.
The Rw performance was mainly influenced by whether an opponent cut them in half by taking C2, or not. If cut, they got no network score and had a low chance for edge scoring. If connected, they had a chance to get a share of these 72 VPs.
Yes this is true, but you also have to take your chances. Consider flikkenstein's move here:

http://terra.snellman.net/game/PlayerShuffle11/max-row=87

The 5pw -> p conversion is possible to unlock grey and build c2.

It would have hurt the Nomads, but would have also prevented me from building the temple the first round, while sacrificing a lot of power. Not sure I would have done much better by making that move. Is it possible to replay this game from that point forward, so I can see if I would have done better had I taken C2???

P.S. I think the major difference was the starting placement of Giants and Nomads. In PerOlander's Rw game they stayed away from the westside.
I'd say to connect is a very high priority in FI because of the double endgame scorings. Without it you have to do exceptionally well on cults to compensate. Losing a R1 temple is not good but in this case I had definitely done it. But that's just my opinion of course - replaying won't happen!
 
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James Ataei
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First of all, the shuffle games are just a simulation of parallel universes, suggesting to go back to a certain point in just one of the games adds the time machine variable too. ARE YOU SURE YOU CAN HANDLE IT??!?!!???!!!
 
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GJ Flikweert
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I'm not actually proposing this, but it would be really interesting to see what would happen if we started the four games again and played them. We've all seen how to best play each faction and how to best oppose the opponent, so how would it play out if we played again with all that knowledge?!? surprise
 
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Robert
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Flikkenstein wrote:
I'm not actually proposing this, but it would be really interesting to see what would happen if we started the four games again and played them. We've all seen how to best play each faction and how to best oppose the opponent, so how would it play out if we played again with all that knowledge?!? surprise
I'd be cool with that, though I wouldn't want to start such a rerun before mid of August, when the current F&I games and the upcoming tournament games have progressed a bit.
 
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James Ataei
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DocCool wrote:
Flikkenstein wrote:
I'm not actually proposing this, but it would be really interesting to see what would happen if we started the four games again and played them. We've all seen how to best play each faction and how to best oppose the opponent, so how would it play out if we played again with all that knowledge?!? surprise
I'd be cool with that, though I wouldn't want to start such a rerun before mid of August, when the current F&I games and the upcoming tournament games have progressed a bit.

The universe and the timeline has this natural forcing agent that gently pushes things back to correction! So the results IMHO will be the same!
 
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GJ Flikweert
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I hope I would have learned enough to at least double my final score!!!

We could actually make that the tiebreaker between Kruppy and Per though! If they tie again we for sure know that their skill level is exactly equal!
 
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