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Subject: Building in "Adjoining Province" rss

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Harold Coleman
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The example on page 6 seems to contradict that a player can only build in a province that was adjoining a province under that player's control at the beginning of his turn. It states that after a player builds a trieme in a sea adjacent to one of his provinces, that he can then build a control marker and a legendary city in the adjoining province, implying everything was done on one turn. Is there a missing clause such as "After building the trieme, next turn he can build a control marker and legendary city..."
 
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Jon Snow
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goo No, as long as you are building a trireme next to a province you controlled already at the start of the turn, you can proceed immediately to build a control marker adjacent to the trireme. You could not build another one next to the first one.
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Richard Shipley
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The phrasing of the rule is a little awkward.

The target province of your control marker build must be adjacent to, or adjoining (via trireme connection), a province that was under your control at the beginning of your turn. The target province did not have to adjoining at the beginning of your turn, but the province you're expanding from had to be under your control at the beginning of your turn. The intention of the rule is to prevent chaining of multiple control marker builds in a single turn.
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Steve Malczak
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That makes intuitive sense to me, but here is a corollary question:

Is it possible to build Control, then build a trireme off of it and then connect to an original province to then exert control? Since that probably makes absolutely no sense as written, lemme provide an example

At the start of the turn, I own Italia. Can I build a trireme in Mare Ionium and then build control on Sicilia? By my read yes, I can. Given that, can I then (in the same turn) build a trireme into Mare Africum and then extend control into say, Creta? Again, I don't see any reason why not since I'm tracing the 'Adjoining' back to Italia...I just build the trireme from Sicilia but now Creta and Italia are 'Adjoining'.

Is that legal too?
 
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George
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Since you can build Triremes in any province you control (even new ones), that does look legal. Interesting!

Since it involves triremes and mostly those center islands doesn't look overpowering. I don't think you can do it the first turn since I think you'd need 12 resources. And by turn 2 one of the islands is probably already claimed anyway. Could be a surprise move if the islands are ignored for several turns. (And looks like Greece, Carthage & Egypt have access to those 2 islands from the start without even using this trick.)
 
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Jon Pessano
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Talenn wrote:
That makes intuitive sense to me, but here is a corollary question:

Is it possible to build Control, then build a trireme off of it and then connect to an original province to then exert control? Since that probably makes absolutely no sense as written, lemme provide an example

At the start of the turn, I own Italia. Can I build a trireme in Mare Ionium and then build control on Sicilia? By my read yes, I can. Given that, can I then (in the same turn) build a trireme into Mare Africum and then extend control into say, Creta? Again, I don't see any reason why not since I'm tracing the 'Adjoining' back to Italia...I just build the trireme from Sicilia but now Creta and Italia are 'Adjoining'.

Is that legal too?


I also was confused by this rule (and ask the same question last week) but I think this sounds wrong.

I have no reason to back this up but if this was the case one could daisy chain across the board.

Hope someone has the answer.

Thx
jonpfl
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George
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jonpfl wrote:
Talenn wrote:
That makes intuitive sense to me, but here is a corollary question:

Is it possible to build Control, then build a trireme off of it and then connect to an original province to then exert control? Since that probably makes absolutely no sense as written, lemme provide an example

At the start of the turn, I own Italia. Can I build a trireme in Mare Ionium and then build control on Sicilia? By my read yes, I can. Given that, can I then (in the same turn) build a trireme into Mare Africum and then extend control into say, Creta? Again, I don't see any reason why not since I'm tracing the 'Adjoining' back to Italia...I just build the trireme from Sicilia but now Creta and Italia are 'Adjoining'.

Is that legal too?


I also was confused by this rule (and ask the same question last week) but I think this sounds wrong.

I have no reason to back this up but if this was the case one could daisy chain across the board.

Hope someone has the answer.

Thx
jonpfl


I could be missing a rule but it looks legal.

But it only works when building triremes and connecting to coastal provinces/islands. Almost all the coastal provinces are claimed at the beginning of the game by the active civilizations.

So it's sort of a chain (trireme->province->trireme->province) but it takes a lot more effort than the simple land chain of province->province.

So the extra effort combined with most coastal provinces being unavailable to claim, I'm guessing this is a move that doesn't happen very often at all.
 
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Robert
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Are we sure that a province doesn't need to be adjacent or adjoining at the start of someone's turn, like he actual rule book says? Because we just play assuming the example is wrong, and not the rule.
 
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Sean West
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RobertDD wrote:
Are we sure that a province doesn't need to be adjacent or adjoining at the start of someone's turn, like he actual rule book says? Because we just play assuming the example is wrong, and not the rule.

The rulebook doesn't say that a province needs to be adjacent or adjoining at the start of your turn to assert control. It says that the province being controlled must be adjacent to or adjoining a province that was under the player's control at the start of his turn. It's not the adjacency/adjoining that matters at the start of the turn, it is control of the source province that matters.

From there, the rulebook says that control of an adjacent/adjoining province at the start of your turn only matters for asserting control. It does not say that you have to control a province at the start of your turn to build there.

Therefore, in Talenn's scenario, he could legally build control in Sicilia after building the first Trireme from Italia. (I don't think anyone disputes those steps). Since he now controls Sicilia he can legally build a Trireme in an adjacent sea. (Control at start of turn not required to build buildings and units.)

So now he wants to build control in Creta. The relevant question is, "Is Creta adjacent to or adjoining a province that Talenn controlled at the start of his turn?" And the answer is, "Yes, it is adjoining Italia."

As far as I can see, the (English) rules as written would allow Talenn's scenario to be legal.
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Robert
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seanmwest wrote:
RobertDD wrote:
Are we sure that a province doesn't need to be adjacent or adjoining at the start of someone's turn, like he actual rule book says? Because we just play assuming the example is wrong, and not the rule.

The rulebook doesn't say that a province needs to be adjacent or adjoining at the start of your turn to assert control. It says that the province being controlled must be adjacent to or adjoining a province that was under the player's control at the start of his turn. It's not the adjacency/adjoining that matters at the start of the turn, it is control of the source province that matters.

From there, the rulebook says that control of an adjacent/adjoining province at the start of your turn only matters for asserting control. It does not say that you have to control a province at the start of your turn to build there.

Therefore, in Talenn's scenario, he could legally build control in Sicilia after building the first Trireme from Italia. (I don't think anyone disputes those steps). Since he now controls Sicilia he can legally build a Trireme in an adjacent sea. (Control at start of turn not required to build buildings and units.)

So now he wants to build control in Creta. The relevant question is, "Is Creta adjacent to or adjoining a province that Talenn controlled at the start of his turn?" And the answer is, "Yes, it is adjoining Italia."

As far as I can see, the (English) rules as written would allow Talenn's scenario to be legal.


I reread the rules and finally get it. Interesting. I'm still not sure the designer didn't intend that you're supposed to be adjoining at the start of your turn, but I agree that it is not what the English rule states.
 
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Thierry Mattray
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I have to ask to Serge.

The spirit of the rule is to avoid to chain controls building, but seanmwest'comment is pertinent.
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Jon Pessano
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seanmwest wrote:
RobertDD wrote:
Are we sure that a province doesn't need to be adjacent or adjoining at the start of someone's turn, like he actual rule book says? Because we just play assuming the example is wrong, and not the rule.

The rulebook doesn't say that a province needs to be adjacent or adjoining at the start of your turn to assert control. It says that the province being controlled must be adjacent to or adjoining a province that was under the player's control at the start of his turn. It's not the adjacency/adjoining that matters at the start of the turn, it is control of the source province that matters.

From there, the rulebook says that control of an adjacent/adjoining province at the start of your turn only matters for asserting control. It does not say that you have to control a province at the start of your turn to build there.

Therefore, in Talenn's scenario, he could legally build control in Sicilia after building the first Trireme from Italia. (I don't think anyone disputes those steps).


All,

I still have trouble seeing how this is legal. I realize the example shows it IS legal but the rules that state a province has to be adjacent (it is not) or adjoining (it is not) at the beginning of your turn.

My understanding of the rule is that since there was NOT a trireme at the start of the turn, the rules state it is NOT adjacent.

Again, I realize the example contradicts what I am saying but the rule seems not to follow the example.

Thx
jonpfl
 
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Harold Coleman
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Hi Jon, as the OP I finally "got it" after several read-throughs. It all stems from how you interpret this sentence: "A player can only build in a province that was (adjacent to or) adjoining a province under that player's control at the beginning of his turn..."

Think of it like this: A player can only build in a province that was adjoining a [province under that player's control at the beginning of his turn]...

Not this: A player can only build in a province that was [adjoining a province under that player's control at the beginning of his turn]...

See the difference? You can make a distant province adjoining to a [province you control at the beginning of your turn] by building a trireme in a connecting sea zone.
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Steve Malczak
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Yes, the wording is such that it appears legal to 'chain' Control in a single turn.

In practice though, I don't think that situation is going to occur very often or be all that useful even if it could be done (ie, you'll have multiple undefended provinces that aren't really producing anything yet).

I honestly don't see the problem with leaving the rule as written even if it violates the 'spirit' of what might have originally been intended. I asked more as a matter of understanding the rules rather than my evaluation that this might actually be a useful ability.

In any case, the alternative would likely slow the game down a bit --if you have to have the adjoining effect (such as the trireme already in place) before establishing control. In our games it has been fairly common to build a trireme and then extend control across the water immediate and that seems to almost be necessary to allow for expansion onto the islands and to foster conflict. I have not seen anyone actually wanting to chain from there but it looks like it would be POSSIBLE given the rule as written.
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Daniel U. Thibault
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The French wording is functionally identical, making this "trick" legal.
 
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Thierry Mattray
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hgcoleman wrote:
Hi Jon, as the OP I finally "got it" after several read-throughs. It all stems from how you interpret this sentence: "A player can only build in a province that was (adjacent to or) adjoining a province under that player's control at the beginning of his turn..."

Think of it like this: A player can only build in a province that was adjoining a [province under that player's control at the beginning of his turn]...

Not this: A player can only build in a province that was [adjoining a province under that player's control at the beginning of his turn]...

See the difference? You can make a distant province adjoining to a [province you control at the beginning of your turn] by building a trireme in a connecting sea zone.


Thats it !
For exemple, as Roman owning Italia, you can :
-buid a trireme on Mare ionium
-then build an influence on Sicilia
-then build a trireme on Mare africum
-then build an influence on Creta.

You can do it because :
-You was owning Italia at the beginning of the turn
-Creta is adjoining Italia with two triremes on Mare Africum and Mare ionium.

If you choose to build the first trirem on Mare Tyrrhenum instead of mare ionium, you can't build an influence on Creta because Creta is not adjoining Italia (you can't connect it via the newly influence of Sicilia).

I think this is ok with the spirit of the rule.
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Jeff Jones
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It might not come up a lot but the Atlantean player could perform this kind of "trick" with only ten resources, since she builds triremes cheaper.
 
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Wink
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hgcoleman wrote:
Hi Jon, as the OP I finally "got it" after several read-throughs. It all stems from how you interpret this sentence: "A player can only build in a province that was (adjacent to or) adjoining a province under that player's control at the beginning of his turn..."

Think of it like this: A player can only build in a province that was adjoining a [province under that player's control at the beginning of his turn]...

Not this: A player can only build in a province that was [adjoining a province under that player's control at the beginning of his turn]...

See the difference? You can make a distant province adjoining to a [province you control at the beginning of your turn] by building a trireme in a connecting sea zone.

I agree with this (bold emphasis added). No daisy-chaining off of newly placed control markers on the same turn.

Therefore
Quote:
A player controlling Italia may
-buid a trireme on Mare ionium
-then build an influence (control marker) on Sicilia
-then build a trireme on Mare africum
-then build an influence (control marker) on Creta
Is only legal because Creta is adjoining Italia through the Triremes (and Triremes don't have the build requirement of being adjacent or adjoining at the beginning of the round, only control markers do.)

So basically - daisy chaining control markers doesn't work on land (adjacent), but can be done over sea zone through creative building of Triremes (adjoining).
 
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