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Subject: Threats Move & Fire rss

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William Giant
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So, in the original Panic the "threats" only dealt damage in "short range."

In the rulebook it seems to be saying ships move every turn and fire every turn. However, it also says threats fire "if" they are short range. Do ships fire from all ranges? I suppose this would make sense with the stronger shields and hull, but the rules really could have been a lot clearer.
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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zmapenguin wrote:
So, in the original Panic the "threats" only dealt damage in "short range."

In the rulebook it seems to be saying ships move every turn and fire every turn. However, it also says threats fire "if" they are short range. Do ships fire from all ranges? I suppose this would make sense with the stronger shields and hull, but the rules really could have been a lot clearer.

I agree. The first two times I played, I didn't have ships fire unless they were in the short range (or had a special reason to fire, like the Klingon leader ships). But playing the (presumably) correct way the next few times seemed incredibly hard.

I think we also need some clarification about whether cards can be discarded or played if they have no useful effect, which has been asked a few times here. I've been playing that you have to hold on to cards unless you can play them, but that really seems to muck things up a lot, especially once the Enterprise is hopelessly crippled from damage and you can no longer maneuver, which has happened very quickly the past few games (where all enemies fire every turn). Being able to cycle the cards a little better would offer some balance to that.
 
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William Giant
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The original I believe allowed players to discard one card each turn. The ability to assign cards to missions allows for another way to get cards out of the hand, but the game can still really bog down, and it's not a lot of fun.

Being able to discard just one card would be enough to bring things back into balance. We're giving it a try without discarding for now, but I see this being a likely house rule.

I'd much rather up the difficulty in another place if this made the game too easy, rather than sit and watch things happen in a game I can't play.
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marty labarbera
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I feel the same way. The shields are gone by the end of the first mission and you just about can never get them back. Maybe a facing or two. The problem is that it doesn't feel like Star Trek when you are not able to repair and get shields working again. Just too much damage happening too quickly.
So you are doing missions with no shields and a ship that cannot maneuver.
Since there is so much damage coming Enterprise's way there should be better repair capabilities.
 
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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It makes me wonder if there's something about the rules that I'm getting wrong, or that wasn't explained well, like the firing or discarding or something.

When I played it incorrectly twice, where ships only fired when reaching the inner ring, I won (barely) and lost, but it felt like a good challenge. I am baffled about anyone possibly completing 10 missions when ships always fire and when you can't discard. I could barely get three missions done (often just two), and even that was a slog.

In either case, it seems harder than Castle Panic, and that's good, but it also feels a bit too brutal for a casual game, in the way that I'm currently interpreting the rules.
 
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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What bums me out is that I love the Maneuver ability... it's a great addition to this version of the game and works great with the Trek theme... but usually before too long you're so pounded down that you can't maneuver any more, and can't repair enough to regain that ability.
 
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marty labarbera
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Exactly the problem. Hard to believe this game was play tested correctly .
What fun is it to play a game that you never can win? I have played 3
Times and got to the 4th mission while losing two missions in the process.
 
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Martin Gallo
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My wife and I refer to his game as "Last Mission Enterprise."

We have only played two-player with one character each. We might try a game with more than two characters (and hands of cards) to get more cards "out there" for possible play. We have lost, I think, seven missions because we never drew away missions and got destroyed.
 
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Marco Teti
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mjlaba wrote:
Exactly the problem. Hard to believe this game was play tested correctly .
What fun is it to play a game that you never can win? I have played 3
Times and got to the 4th mission while losing two missions in the process.

I don't understand this mindset. How easy do you want it to be? Do you want it Castle Panic easy or Wizards Tower + Titan challenging. I like the challenge. After all if it was too easy to beat like Castle panic was to an extent, Why play it?

Played a game last night with Kirk and barely squeaked a win on the last mission. His 'Drawing 2 cards when using a card for the missions is quite useful.

Sure it's challenging and that's what makes you come back and play more.

Pandemic got easier to an extent. Once On the Brink came out, that certainly ramped up the game for the better. I don't paly Pandemic without that The virulent strain mechanic.
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
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Agreed. I do like a co-op game to be hard.

As long as I know that I am playing it correctly (all ships fire all turns, regardless of where they are + cards can not be discarded or played without some effect), and the game is winnable, then that's fine.
 
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marty labarbera
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Ok....I don't want it easy,,,,but it has to be winnable on occasion. So far even using 3 characters with 6 cards total for the hand and no discard of unusable cards.... I have been destroyed during mission 3,4, and 4. Maneuver is usually lost during mission 2 so now you are a sitting duck. My opinion is that there is not enough repair to shields and hull to at least make it "A near run thing". Especially since so much damage comes at you so constantly. I want my ship to at least have my engineers with a shot at fixing some of the damage before being overwhelmed. Is not that what we saw in Star Trek TOS?
 
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marty labarbera
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Ok....I don't want it easy,,,,but it has to be winnable on occasion. So far even using 3 characters with 6 cards total for the hand and no discard of unusable cards.... I have been destroyed during mission 3,4, and 4. Maneuver is usually lost during mission 2 so now you are a sitting duck. My opinion is that there is not enough repair to shields and hull to at least make it "A near run thing". Especially since so much damage comes at you so constantly. I want my ship to at least have my engineers with a shot at fixing some of the damage before being overwhelmed. Is not that what we saw in Star Trek TOS?
 
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Dennis Crissman
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Looking back to the original Castle Panic is a mistake, there is significant changes that make this a worthwhile new game.
Ships fire at any range but remember they move then fire.
So a ship in medium range comes into short range and then fires. A ship in short range becomes a boarder unless it's a Tholian. Tholians stop firing in short range as they are building the web that immobilizes the ship.
Considering you have 2 hits to take out a shield and then 2 to have a destroyed hull that's 4 times to get to worst case.

It's much easier to repair and restore as in Castle Panic you could never rebuild a tower, but in Star Trek Panic you can repair destroyed hulls.
Even when we were making the mistake of counting hits from ships in the same sector as destroying shields and then the hull, we were able to come back from 5 destroyed hulls to win the game.
 
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Marco Teti
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cyberphin wrote:
Looking back to the original Castle Panic is a mistake, there is significant changes that make this a worthwhile new game.
Ships fire at any range but remember they move then fire.
So a ship in medium range comes into short range and then fires. A ship in short range becomes a boarder unless it's a Tholian. Tholians stop firing in short range as they are building the web that immobilizes the ship.
Considering you have 2 hits to take out a shield and then 2 to have a destroyed hull that's 4 times to get to worst case.

It's much easier to repair and restore as in Castle Panic you could never rebuild a tower, but in Star Trek Panic you can repair destroyed hulls.
Even when we were making the mistake of counting hits from ships in the same sector as destroying shields and then the hull, we were able to come back from 5 destroyed hulls to win the game.

Played this with a couple that was interested in Star Trek Panic. We beat the game yet it was definitely tense. Communication is a huge key was we all talked and planned out how we could deal with ships and we were able to put cards towards the missions. We were sitting ducks on with 5 destroyed hull sections and basically half the deck was eliminated based on damage to the hull sections on our 4th mission. We got the cards we needed and was able to restore 2 hulls. Our last missions was the just getting to the Space specimen. I happened to draw and tiridium and dilithium to restore the 3rd hull. We were able to maneuver the ship to the specimen and Chekov dealt with the remaining threats. Game is fantastic. We were able to pull out a win. It was tense and well communicated.
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David Thiel
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mjlaba wrote:
Ok....I don't want it easy,,,,but it has to be winnable on occasion.

So far, I'm one for two. The first was with four players, and we completed four missions before a comet smashed into the one remaining hull section. Granted that the fifth mission would've been impossible for us to complete, as it was one of those "maneuver to bring X into short range" affairs.

Last night I took part in a five-player game, and things went much better. It helped that one of the early missions was "Day of the Dove," which requires nothing more than to survive three turns of being battered by Klingons. We got smacked around quite a lot by the Doomsday Machine, as we'd blown through all of the Dilithium early in the game. We completed the fifth mission with only two destroyed hull sections.
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William Giant
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I've been doing some thinking after our play, and I really think not being able to discard is a punch to the fun zone I'm not willing to take.

Also, we got really shot up, stuck dead with no way to play the cards in our hands as the mission stalled, but I didn't feel we were really close to losing because it takes a long time to burn through the player deck.

Here's where I'm headed with it:

1. The active player may discard one card before drawing.

2. Enemy attacks on damaged sections of the hull removes two cards from the Enterprise Deck per point of damage.


Ups the difficulty, discourages idiotic play, and yet keeps the game moving.
 
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Michael Dillenbeck
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This game is a bit different from the original Castle Panic - yes, ships fire from all ranges, but they can also be dealt with by using careful maneuvering at the right times plus using good trading. Also, no, you can't "discard" a card for free... but maneuvers exist so you can try to put a foe in the right spot to use a card.

Example: A Romulan Bird-of-Prey comes out in a front facing. The next player has a long range forward facing phaser, and another player has a long range side facing phaser. Player 1 trades for the side phaser, fires the front long range, maneuvers to put the ship in a side facing, then fires the side facing phaser - that is 2 damage and it destroys the Bird-of-Prey.

Note from the example how important maneuvering is to using your cards effectively - this means that Sulu is actually a lot more powerful than he first seems. He can more readily maneuver a defensive shield into place or race to a mission if needed.

Spock is also key to mitigating threats - all players draw a threat, resolve it, draw another threat, and resolve it; but Spock draws 3 threats, puts 1 in a bag, and then plays the selected 2 in any order. This means he can avoid the dreaded "double comet" or other potentially lethal combinations.

Scotty isn't too bad either if you can destroy most threats and only take 1 damage on a couple locations - between maneuvering and the 1 free repair to either a damaged (not destroyed) shield or hull, he can really buy you some extra time.

Can you win the game? Sure - its challenging but not insane if you consider your actions as a group carefully. More key is making sure you don't fail missions, as the Enterprise really can't hold out for too long - and hope that Starbase shows up in the right place at the right time. However, I do expect this one to be tougher than Castle Panic (and I have all the expansions for that), so expect some losses - but not an insanely high amount.
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