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Subject: Hillary Clinton's alleged dishonesty and corruption rss

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Ben Foy
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Here is a fun article touching on this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/30/wa...

When people say Hillary Clinton doesn't believe the rules apply to her, I can see that. But where do these accusations of dishonesty and corruption come from? I've not seen one reliable accusation of either, yet many people parrot long disproven smear campaigns. Even people who should know better.
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If you do not want Hillary, you'll get the other one.

So don't come complaining afterwards!
 
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BFoy wrote:
Here is a fun article touching on this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/30/wa...

When people say Hillary Clinton doesn't believe the rules apply to her, I can see that. But where do these accusations of dishonesty and corruption come from? I've not seen one reliable accusation of either, yet many people parrot long disproven smear campaigns. Even people who should know better.
And there you have it in a nutshell, both sides are telling lies.

So it then just boils down to not which liar you believe but which one you think will do the less harm overall.
 
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Junior McSpiffy
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anemaat wrote:
If you do not want Hillary, you'll get the other one.

So don't come complaining afterwards!

Saying that because one* of the two primary candidates in the election is a sociopath then you should vote for the other doesn't address the issues being raised. Saying "Hillary is not Trump" does not mean "Hillary is not a corrupt or dishonest politician."





* Or, more likely, more than one
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Junior McSpiffy
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BFoy wrote:
Here is a fun article touching on this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/30/wa...

When people say Hillary Clinton doesn't believe the rules apply to her, I can see that. But where do these accusations of dishonesty and corruption come from? I've not seen one reliable accusation of either, yet many people parrot long disproven smear campaigns. Even people who should know better.

Are you saying that Hillary only lies because she doesn't want to seem like she's out of the loop and doesn't want to seem ignorant on national TV?
 
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Dan Wheeler
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BFoy wrote:
Here is a fun article touching on this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/30/wa...

When people say Hillary Clinton doesn't believe the rules apply to her, I can see that. But where do these accusations of dishonesty and corruption come from? I've not seen one reliable accusation of either, yet many people parrot long disproven smear campaigns. Even people who should know better.

From an obviously biased source, but if the email is accurate it proves she lied about not sending any emails marked classified:

http://observer.com/2016/06/breaking-hillary-clinton-sent-in...

And that's not covering the difference between "I did not send any emails marked classified" versus "I did not send any classified emails", which for people who work in the security field is a huge red flag. Her first refusing to turn over her email, then turning over a wiped hard drive, erasing a bunch of "personal emails", and statements from deleted emails that were recovered about how she didn't want a state account because she didn't want people to be able to see her emails, and all the emails that are mysteriously lost... there's just so much smoke around her it's hard not to believe she's not lying.

Then there are all the campaign shenanigans that can't be linked to her, but that all benefit her. The email from before the primaries that named her as the presumptive democratic pick for the race, while not illegal, certainly seems corrupt. There are many other questions about people who were registered Democrat that suddenly had their registrations erased or switched, polling stations that were given wrong information about how to handle independent voters, exit polls that don't add up with the final tallies, and the major media declaring her the winner of the DNC before California voted when even now there are votes uncounted that, again, no definite proof but certainly surrounds her with an atmosphere of corruptness/dishonesty.


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SpiderCircus wrote:


From an obviously biased source, but if the email is accurate it proves she lied about not sending any emails marked classified:

http://observer.com/2016/06/breaking-hillary-clinton-sent-in...

And that's not covering the difference between "I did not send any emails marked classified" versus "I did not send any classified emails", which for people who work in the security field is a huge red flag.


That email was marked classified 4 years after it was sent. How is this a lie on Clinton's part that she didn't send any emails "marked" classified. It doesn't look like it was "marked" classified when she sent it. Seems like a weak gotcha.

Just another way the other side uses wiggle words with weak references to make something sound like a gotcha, and frame it as such, but really, not much.
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SpiderCircus wrote:


Then there are all the campaign shenanigans that can't be linked to her, but that all benefit her. The email from before the primaries that named her as the presumptive democratic pick for the race, while not illegal, certainly seems corrupt. There are many other questions about people who were registered Democrat that suddenly had their registrations erased or switched, polling stations that were given wrong information about how to handle independent voters, exit polls that don't add up with the final tallies, and the major media declaring her the winner of the DNC before California voted when even now there are votes uncounted that, again, no definite proof but certainly surrounds her with an atmosphere of corruptness/dishonesty.


And this point flies into the op's point. All hearsay, and poor feelings. Nothing substantiated, again.

Plus you have to understand, Clinton should have always been the Democratic pick. She was the only Democrat running in the primary(plus a few unknowns). The Democratic primary isn't meant to pick the people choice for the candidate for the DNC, it's to pick the best Democratic candidate. Sanders wasn't a Democrat, he was an interloper, and his voters were in essence trying to game the system to take advantage of the DNC.

The only "shady" one in that equation was Sanders and his voters. He should have ran as an Independent.

Unfortunately for the RNC, their interloper gamed the system and took over.
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Steve Cates
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Hilliary Clinton wrote:
What difference at this point does it make...
whether she lied about the terrorist attack on a US embassy.
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Dan Wheeler
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MWChapel wrote:
SpiderCircus wrote:


Then there are all the campaign shenanigans that can't be linked to her, but that all benefit her. The email from before the primaries that named her as the presumptive democratic pick for the race, while not illegal, certainly seems corrupt. There are many other questions about people who were registered Democrat that suddenly had their registrations erased or switched, polling stations that were given wrong information about how to handle independent voters, exit polls that don't add up with the final tallies, and the major media declaring her the winner of the DNC before California voted when even now there are votes uncounted that, again, no definite proof but certainly surrounds her with an atmosphere of corruptness/dishonesty.


And this point flies into the op's point. All hearsay, and poor feelings. Nothing substantiated, again.

Plus you have to understand, Clinton should have always been the Democratic pick. She was the only Democrat running in the primary(plus a few unknowns). The Democratic primary isn't meant to pick the people choice for the candidate for the DNC, it's to pick the best Democratic candidate. Sanders wasn't a Democrat, he was an interloper, and his voters were in essence trying to game the system to take advantage of the DNC.

The only "shady" one in that equation was Sanders and his voters. He should have ran as an Independent.

Unfortunately for the RNC, their interloper gamed the system and took over.

Which is why I say that she's surrounded by that atmosphere of dishonesty and corruption. It's amazingly hard to get anything substantial to stick to her because she's very good at not getting pinned down. For example, when she said that she'd been campaigning for health (reform) since 93' or 94' and couldn't remember where Bernie was, and he was literally standing behind her, and when they showed the hand-written note from Hillary to Bernie thanking him for his help on health reform, either she was lying about not knowing where he was or she forgot. Hard to prove, but most people will think she was lying.

When she said (while campaigning against Obama) a candidate should be ready to debate anytime, anywhere, and then cancelled the remaining debates against Bernie in California. Tactically it made sense to do so since she wouldn't have gained anything from it and could probably have lost quite a bit, so it wasn't a risk worth taking, but again adding to her aura of dishonesty.

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BFoy wrote:
I've not seen one reliable accusation of either, yet many people parrot long disproven smear campaigns. Even people who should know better.

I think the big scandals are generally overblown, but I also have a pretty low regard for Clinton's integrity. I watched her try to spin a combination of infidelity and abuse of power into a "vast, right-wing conspiracy" when she knew that the allegations were true. (That doesn't mean that the conspiracy didn't exist, of course.) Over the years I've seen her choose positions based on political calculations on a very consistent basis and read numerous insider accounts -- including ones by people who are fans -- that show someone with an incredible focus on her own personal ambition and a cynical willingness to say or do whatever is necessary.

She's by no means alone in this. I think every top politician has it to some extent, and it was one of the criticisms I had of Romney -- and would have been of some of the GOP nominees had they not been knocked out. And Trump is an order of magnitude worse.

In terms of corruption, I think it's not the garden-variety corruption of kickbacks and bribes. It's more the soft corruption of entitlement and rules not applying. It's the expectation that if she'd like to be a Senator the party will of course find a safe seat and give it to her. It's not seeing any appearance of impropriety when she collects big speaking fees from financial institutions she hopes to regulate or when nations donate to her and Bill's foundation while they have business with the State department. (In this area she may even surpass Trump, although to my knowledge she hasn't used foundation money to buy herself sports memorabilia while getting credit for it as charity.)

My congressman is Joe Kennedy. There were a lot of people interested in running for that seat who had worked hard in government and public service for years. One of them is a friend of mine -- I think she would have been a long shot, but might have won and running would have been a good opportunity for her to learn, grow, and be seen by voters and other political leaders. Instead, a Kennedy who was totally unqualified by experience (but who of course had little interest in ladder steps that weren't at or near the top) decided to run and she and the others got out of his way because they had no choice.

I find that sort of entitlement poisonous on many levels...and the thing that it most reminds me of is Clinton becoming the Senator for NY. Regardless of how well she served, the idea that a Senate seat would essentially be handed to someone because of who they are is galling to me. And I doubt very much that either she or Joe felt the slightest bit of discomfort at all the people whose careers might have been spent working towards one or two chances to run for national office and who had to get out of the way because one of their betters wanted it.
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BFoy wrote:
I've not seen one reliable accusation of either, yet many people parrot long disproven smear campaigns. Even people who should know better.

So the fact that she rails against wall street banks and big money, then takes millions for "speaking engagements" with Goldman Sachs and wont release the transcripts of her "speech" does not raise any red flags for you ?
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Kelsey Rinella
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SpiderCircus wrote:

Which is why I say that she's surrounded by that atmosphere of dishonesty and corruption. It's amazingly hard to get anything substantial to stick to her because she's very good at not getting pinned down.

If the atmosphere of dishonesty and oblique suggestion rather than forthright statements bothers you, how do you feel about her attackers? This is my problem with the narrative--when trying to figure out who I trust, I can't frame an objection to her which doesn't apply to those trying to make me think she's a liar.
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I just think that people feel that they get more than "speaking" from the "speaking fees" paid to her and Bill Clinton, and that if you look at the people who pay those fees, these are not the people I want personally directly giving money to someone who will be president, because I think they have way too much influence over our politics already.

Obviously there's no provable quid pro quo but I find it to have an "odor of corruption" which would make another candidate more viable.

If of course we had an opposition party which was not on a runaway minecart ride to creating a fascist, racist, authoritarian christian theocracy.
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her calculating opportunism and unscrupulousness would be praised as qualities of a great businessman in trump
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Dan Wheeler
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rinelk wrote:
SpiderCircus wrote:

Which is why I say that she's surrounded by that atmosphere of dishonesty and corruption. It's amazingly hard to get anything substantial to stick to her because she's very good at not getting pinned down.

If the atmosphere of dishonesty and oblique suggestion rather than forthright statements bothers you, how do you feel about her attackers? This is my problem with the narrative--when trying to figure out who I trust, I can't frame an objection to her which doesn't apply to those trying to make me think she's a liar.

If her attacker is Trump or the Republican party in general, I agree. It's fascinating to me to watch him accuse her of getting rich at the expense of the common person without me thinking "well, yeah, but so did you". And that goes for most of the other attacks they've done. I don't think that means they're wrong, just that they're both dishonest and corrupt.
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slatersteven wrote:
BFoy wrote:
Here is a fun article touching on this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/30/wa...

When people say Hillary Clinton doesn't believe the rules apply to her, I can see that. But where do these accusations of dishonesty and corruption come from? I've not seen one reliable accusation of either, yet many people parrot long disproven smear campaigns. Even people who should know better.
And there you have it in a nutshell, both sides are telling lies.

So it then just boils down to not which liar you believe but which one you think will do the less harm overall.

Really? You have 2 candidates, one who says whatever comes into his head and he doesn't care if it is true or not. The other is called a liar even though their is very little indication she has told many lies. And we are told these candidates are equivalent.

We have 2 candidates, one who ran a fraudulent university and is known to have driven honest people out of business with his schemes. The other gave a lot of speeches. And we are told these candidates are equivalent.

Where is the evidence?
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GameCrossing wrote:
BFoy wrote:
Here is a fun article touching on this:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2016/06/30/wa...

When people say Hillary Clinton doesn't believe the rules apply to her, I can see that. But where do these accusations of dishonesty and corruption come from? I've not seen one reliable accusation of either, yet many people parrot long disproven smear campaigns. Even people who should know better.

Are you saying that Hillary only lies because she doesn't want to seem like she's out of the loop and doesn't want to seem ignorant on national TV?

I'm saying, accuse her of what she has done. She broke the rules at State and gave excuses. That doesn't make her corrupt. There are several occasions where she has lied. She admitted to making a speech where she supported an Obama administration position that she didn't believe in. But she isn't a pathological liar like the other candidate.
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Drew1365 wrote:
Your fascist racist authoritarians are all on the left, my friend. And they are quite happy with Islamist theocracy.

*citation needed
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Chad Ellis
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single sentences wrote:
her calculating opportunism and unscrupulousness would be praised as qualities of a great businessman in trump

QFT. I think it's hilarious that Trump can call anyone corrupt without being laughed out of the room. He has explicitly stated that he engaged in corruption as a buyer -- that whenever any politician came to him he donated and that he did so because then they would do favors for him down the road. He also said that anyone who does business with government and doesn't get rich is an idiot and in context it seems clear that he meant because you can get a terrific payback on "investments" in elected officials.
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Chad_Ellis wrote:
BFoy wrote:
I've not seen one reliable accusation of either, yet many people parrot long disproven smear campaigns. Even people who should know better.

I think the big scandals are generally overblown,

Overblown? Is that what totally fallacious smear campaigns are called now?

Chad_Ellis wrote:
but I also have a pretty low regard for Clinton's integrity. I watched her try to spin a combination of infidelity and abuse of power into a "vast, right-wing conspiracy" when she knew that the allegations were true. (That doesn't mean that the conspiracy didn't exist, of course.)

So what are you saying? If there was a "vast, right-wing conspiracy" she doesn't have a right to criticize it? During the 90s there were dozens of smear campaigns, I don't know if that counts. She assumed reports of her husband's infidelity were just another smear, until she found out otherwise. She isn't perfect. But you are still holding an honest mistake she made over 20 years ago against her. At one of the worst times of her life. What does that say about you?

Oops, ran out of time.
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Dan Wheeler
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Oh, yeah, also the "I was under sniper fire when we landed at Bosnia and we had to run to the car" that was pretty thoroughly debunked by news footage of her shaking hands with a little kid amidst a very calm-looking reception.
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BFoy wrote:
But you are still holding an honest mistake she made over 20 years ago against her. At one of the worst times of her life. What does that say about you?

Oops, ran out of time.

I'm not going to hold this against you, because under time pressure, we often err. But I wouldn't have made this about Chad's character. You can have a productive conversation with him about the substance.
 
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mistertrench wrote:
Drew1365 wrote:
Your fascist racist authoritarians are all on the left, my friend. And they are quite happy with Islamist theocracy.

*citation needed
his sources are secret unfortunately
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Ben Foy
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rinelk wrote:
BFoy wrote:
But you are still holding an honest mistake she made over 20 years ago against her. At one of the worst times of her life. What does that say about you?

Oops, ran out of time.

I'm not going to hold this against you, because under time pressure, we often err. But I wouldn't have made this about Chad's character. You can have a productive conversation with him about the substance.

Yes, you are right, that didn't come out right.
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