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Subject: Can you jettison a (damaged) component when in space? rss

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Yani
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Can you jettison a (damaged) component when in space? For instance to not have to carry it around damaged, assuming you don't have the rendezvous tech, that is.

Thanks.
 
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Paweł Bedz
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According to rules - no, you can not jettison anything without proper technology. Jettisoning is not a simple process - it requires disconnecting some part of the ship so the tech is required - it is not a different thing than disconnecting some rocket to connect it later for example.
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Will H.
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You would need a successful outcome from the Rendezvous advancement to undock the damaged component.

I just double-checked the rules and I did not see anything that prevents you from using the Rendezvous advancement on a damaged component.
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Yani
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One further corner case question. Can you load a damaged component, if on earth?

(I could not afford to wait for end of year and wanted to use it as payload for testing landing, and a damaged component was all I had (besides 3 Junos)).

Thanks
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Joe Fatula
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On Earth you can assemble and disassemble freely. And since a spacecraft can be made of any components you like, yes, you can add damaged components to a spacecraft on Earth.
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Josh Zscheile
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buffalohat wrote:
On Earth you can assemble and disassemble freely. And since a spacecraft can be made of any components you like, yes, you can add damaged components to a spacecraft on Earth.

I knew this implicitly already, but reading it painted the absurd image of someone loading an incapacitated astronaut into a capsule and launch him to space. It should be allowed by the game rules And it even hypothetically could make sense, if you needed the astronaut immediately, there was a medic in orbit and you did not have the money to hire a new one, but rockets and a capsule to launch the other guy. The only question remaining would be, why you had an incapacitated astronaut on Earth to begin with
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Casey Davis
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Dagar wrote:
I knew this implicitly already, but reading it painted the absurd image of someone loading an incapacitated astronaut into a capsule and launch him to space. It should be allowed by the game rules And it even hypothetically could make sense, if you needed the astronaut immediately, there was a medic in orbit and you did not have the money to hire a new one, but rockets and a capsule to launch the other guy.

"Sorry; we don't have time for you to stay in the hospital to recuperate--strap yourself in and the doctors already in orbit will tend to you on the way!"
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eurek
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Slightly different question:
Can I do a partial dock after a succesful rendez-vous? Supposing I have:
- ship A: ion thruster (undamaged)
- ship B: probe (undamaged), ion thruster (damaged)

And I want to get
-ship A: ion (undamaged), probe (undamaged)
- ship B: ion (damaged)


Do I need to rendez-vous maneuvers (dock + undock) or just 1?
 
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Robert Manning
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Two rendezvous actions would be needed.
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Roger BW
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Yup, either you undock the probe from B and dock it with A, or you merge A and B into one big vessel and then split off the bits you don't want.
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David Griffin
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This seems odd. For one thing, the game calls something an Atlas when what it really is is a stage of a rocket with the same thrust as the Atlas. Any launch even without rendezvous advancement "jettisons" the stage as it is used. So you can definitely jettison components at least in some circumstances. And you don't need rendezvous for that.

Plus the example lunar landing calls for complicated flying of the ships to lunar orbit, detaching the capsule (and boosters?), landing with the Eagle, taking off, rendezvousing with the capsule and leaving the Eagle behind. Yes you need rendezvous for this, but this is complicated.

I'm not sure why damaged components are any different. Yes the actual jettison hardware could be faulty but that is below the level of detail of the game.

Plus even if you don't have rendezvous, I have a hard time believing that you need the same level of training to jettison something as you need to manage a complex and difficult "joining together" of two spacecraft.

There are a lot of ways I can see a real rocket being stranded and needing rescue (though really have we ever done that? ... ever?). But pushing a button to manually jettison a rocket component wouldn't seem to require any special talent on the part of the astronauts. Maybe the game requires rendezvous to do this but it doesn't make sense to me. Granted I'm a beginner.
 
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Presumably part of the minor malfunction is that the normal procedure for jettisoning the rocket did not work.
 
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David Griffin
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piman wrote:
Presumably part of the minor malfunction is that the normal procedure for jettisoning the rocket did not work.

That's a little like Star Trek's warp core ejection system, pretty much guaranteed to fail based on observation. I don't know if I hate this enough yet to house rule it.
 
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Robert Manning
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Mostly I agree that Separation seems simple enough that it wouldn't need to be part of an Advancement; but there have been dramatic counter-examples (see: Soyuz 11).

That said, it seems that 90% of the mass of a rocket is fuel so that the remaining mass of a successfully fired rocket is negligible in the scale of this game. A malfunctioned rocket in this game presumably still retains a full load of rocket fuel so the system for jettisoning an empty rocket might not be up to dealing with a full rocket without additional hazard.
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Jakub Glazik
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It's really very simple. Damaging component is not "intelligent process" - it cannot destroy only selected, real functionality leaving "ditching/staging mechanism" fully functional. Sorry, but that's just extremely small chance to happen!

Even simple lost of connection, broken one cable between component and command module (no matter manned or unmanned) makes any operation just impossible.

Spaceship is not automobile, one does not simply stop on the roadside, change tire and ditch the old one. Even if manned mission EVA is not always possible. And even if, what the astronaut should do? Hit broken part with hammer? Unscrew it with screwdriver?

Sorry, but no. Just no. You are trying to simplify it, and in this case it's actually rocket science.
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David Griffin
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rzabcio wrote:
It's really very simple. Damaging component is not "intelligent process" - it cannot destroy only selected, real functionality leaving "ditching/staging mechanism" fully functional. Sorry, but that's just extremely small chance to happen!

Even simple lost of connection, broken one cable between component and command module (no matter manned or unmanned) makes any operation just impossible.

Spaceship is not automobile, one does not simply stop on the roadside, change tire and ditch the old one. Even if manned mission EVA is not always possible. And even if, what the astronaut should do? Hit broken part with hammer? Unscrew it with screwdriver?

Sorry, but no. Just no. You are trying to simplify it, and in this case it's actually rocket science.

So you're saying with all THOSE problems, all you have to do is have the rendezvous advancement and suddenly detaching the hardware is a piece of cake. You're not arguing in favor of the rules. You're arguing for NEVER being able to detach a damaged component.
 
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Ronald
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While we are at it ... is docking a prerequisite if i want to sell payload capacity? If player A launches stuff from player B in his rocket, who needs docking to separate the stack after launch - A? B? or both?
 
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Robert Manning
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RitterFips wrote:
While we are at it ... is docking a prerequisite if i want to sell payload capacity? If player A launches stuff from player B in his rocket, who needs docking to separate the stack after launch - A? B? or both?
Whoever owns the combined spacecraft needs rendezvous in order to separate it. One player, perhaps with spare payload but no rendezvous could do the launch, then turn the in orbit spacecraft over to a player with rendezvous who could split the craft and return the two resulting spacecraft to the appropriate players.
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Jakub Glazik
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carbon_dragon wrote:
So you're saying with all THOSE problems, all you have to do is have the rendezvous advancement and suddenly detaching the hardware is a piece of cake. You're not arguing in favor of the rules. You're arguing for NEVER being able to detach a damaged component.

Fair point. Kinda. Let me rephrase.

You write a lot on High Frontier forums, so my guess is you are consciously (or not) comparing Leaving Earth to Phil Eklund's masterpiece, where you can always ditch component, even in-flight. But HF is near-future game, and spaceships are assembled in Space, in Low Earth Orbit so they have such functionality built-in.

Because having randevouz technology means the spaceships are designed in favor of detaching components in the first place. It means there is backup plan, and backup plan for backup plan even if connection with broken component is lost. Using my car example - it's like having technology for fifth wheel and deploying it temporarily to change flat tire... while driving 100mph.

So, no contradiction here.
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rmanning wrote:
RitterFips wrote:
While we are at it ... is docking a prerequisite if i want to sell payload capacity? If player A launches stuff from player B in his rocket, who needs docking to separate the stack after launch - A? B? or both?
Whoever owns the combined spacecraft needs rendezvous in order to separate it.
And likewise, whoever will own (i.e. draw further outcomes) the resulting merged craft is the one that needs to have/use rendezvous when combining, though such 'rescue missions' are pretty rare in LE.
 
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David Griffin
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rzabcio wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
So you're saying with all THOSE problems, all you have to do is have the rendezvous advancement and suddenly detaching the hardware is a piece of cake. You're not arguing in favor of the rules. You're arguing for NEVER being able to detach a damaged component.

Fair point. Kinda. Let me rephrase.

You write a lot on High Frontier forums, so my guess is you are consciously (or not) comparing Leaving Earth to Phil Eklund's masterpiece, where you can always ditch component, even in-flight. But HF is near-future game, and spaceships are assembled in Space, in Low Earth Orbit so they have such functionality built-in.

Because having randevouz technology means the spaceships are designed in favor of detaching components in the first place. It means there is backup plan, and backup plan for backup plan even if connection with broken component is lost. Using my car example - it's like having technology for fifth wheel and deploying it temporarily to change flat tire... while driving 100mph.

So, no contradiction here.

Are you saying that rockets (stages in a rocket really) aren't designed to separate?
 
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Jordan Booth
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carbon_dragon wrote:
So you're saying with all THOSE problems, all you have to do is have the rendezvous advancement and suddenly detaching the hardware is a piece of cake?
It is not enough to simply have the advancement, you must get a successful outcome from it as well. But yes, that is how this game handles challenging operations. It is the same for Landing, Aerobraking, Life support and all rockets. You may scoff at the mechanism as "all [that] you have to do", but that is how the designer has chosen to represent the possibility of failure.
 
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David Griffin
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Born-of-Ashes wrote:
carbon_dragon wrote:
So you're saying with all THOSE problems, all you have to do is have the rendezvous advancement and suddenly detaching the hardware is a piece of cake?
It is not enough to simply have the advancement, you must get a successful outcome from it as well. But yes, that is how this game handles challenging operations. It is the same for Landing, Aerobraking, Life support and all rockets. You may scoff at the mechanism as "all [that] you have to do", but that is how the designer has chosen to represent the possibility of failure.

Let's step back and talk about what you'd "want" to jettison. You can't jettison humans and probably wouldn't want to unless the astronaut was dead and that isn't within the scope of the game.

You could want to jettison something like a probe or a capsule or "supplies" or something like that. In that case since you would probably would be docked with the probe or capsule or the supplies would have to be made to jettison, maybe that justifies needing the rendezvous enhancement?

You might WANT to do that because it's weight and might make the difference between life and death. I wonder if an interesting mechanic here might be declaring an emergency. You get temporary use of advancements you don't current have but have to use them to come directly home? Like the Apollo 13 situation. Or maybe you have to spend $2 million dollars to do a one time use of an advancement you don't have as a penalty to simulate contacting mission control and having them walk you through it?

The problem is rockets. We know how tight the rocket math is in this game. If you have a malfunctioning rocket, the weight is a serious problem if you're not down in mission control and you don't blow up. Boosters are meant to separate, so yes you could have a simultaneous failure of the eject button/system at the same time as a failure in the part of the system that caused the rocket not to fire. BUT that should be workable by talking to mission control and it seems unlikely both malfunctions would be related. I can buy the possibility that there might be a malfunction in the firing mechanism that also affects the ejection system, but I wouldn't assume that as a given.

So, this isn't a big deal. You could just spend $10 million on rendezvous and IMMEDIATELY separate the rocket in the game, subject to possible failure which would only be reasonable, so the game handles this. You could even (if you had sufficient supplies) launch other vehicles to test out rendezvous first and THEN separate the rocket.

Rockets are designed to separate whether you have developed the tech or more to the point the techniques to dock spaceships. Yes it's lumped under rendezvous in this game as an abstraction, but it's an imperfect abstraction.
 
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