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Subject: Rock paper scissors balancing %'s feedback rss

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Mike Mason
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What do people generally consider a good balance for a strategy war game with rock-paper-scissor mechanics. Mainly: what is a good %chance to win for the favored unit? I've heard 20%-25% is good, but looking for more opinions.
 
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rico
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I don't understand. Rock always wins!
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Steven Anderson
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I'm new to this but it seems to me that being the favored unit but having a 75-80% chance of losing really means that the other guy was favored.... Am I thinking about this wrong?
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Benj Davis
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HawkSpeed wrote:
I'm new to this but it seems to me that being the favored unit but having a 75-80% chance of losing really means that the other guy was favored.... Am I thinking about this wrong?


I think it's just poorly expressed.
 
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Jeremy Lennert
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I don't think there's any universal answer to that. Depends on your design goals for the game.
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Geoffrey Burrell
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In the video game Warsong the Rock, Paper, Scissors concept worked well. Infantry beat Archers but lost to knights, archers beat knights but lost to infantry, and knights beat infantry but lost to archers. So there should be a 33% balance on each unit.
 
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Benj Davis
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GeoffreyB wrote:
In the video game Warsong the Rock, Paper, Scissors concept worked well. Infantry beat Archers but lost to knights, archers beat knights but lost to infantry, and knights beat infantry but lost to archers. So there should be a 33% balance on each unit.


What happens when archers meet archers, knights meet knights, etc?
 
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Todd McCorkle
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spoon wrote:
I don't understand. Rock always wins!

Good old rock. Nothing beats rock!

Trying to remember an extra credits episode ... I think it was titled "imperfect balance". Part of it talked about Magic and the meta environment. Looked at individually, deck A is the most powerful, deck C is the weakest but does really well against deck A (deck B is inbetween). Due to the RPS nature, people started switching to deck C since so many were using A. After a while, people started using B more because of all the Cs and things went a little cyclic there.

I would think 33% across the board would be the ideal (and probably really hard to achieve). Depending on how the game works, you could try adjusting things so that the more powerful stuff is harder/trickier to do. ie a newb would only win 25% of the time, but an expert can win 40%.

Somewhat difficult to describe in the abstract.

(I should rewatch the episode, I'm really not doing it justice)
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Edmund Proctor
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The board game DungeonQuest Revised Edition use the Rock, Paper, Scissors for its combat system. There a few foram items on the subject under Drakborgen.

Or how about;
Rock, Paper, Scissors, Lizard, Spock.
I am a fan of "The Big Bang Therory".
 
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Magnus Carlsson
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So if I get it correctly:
Knight meets Knight, both have X
Knight meets Swordsman, Y vs Z
Swordsman meets Pikeman, Y vs Z
Pikeman meets Knight, Y vs Z

2X = Y+Z

I think it depends on the actual battle complexity:
In simple games with quick resolution I would say Y is 67% (Z=33%). Double the chance to win.
If the combat can last for a longer time period (compare to real time computer games) Y can go higher, if you put a Knight against a Swordsman the Knight will always win eventually but you will have time to react to the situation. So it might be tactical to have a Swordsman engage a Knight to slow him down or delay him until another Swordsman can join in and make it a more even fight.
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Jeremy Lennert
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GeoffreyB wrote:
In the video game Warsong the Rock, Paper, Scissors concept worked well. Infantry beat Archers but lost to knights, archers beat knights but lost to infantry, and knights beat infantry but lost to archers. So there should be a 33% balance on each unit.

Huh. You interpreted the question completely differently than I did.

I interpreted the question as "assuming that rock is supposed to be strong against scissors, then when 1 unit of rock fights 1 unit of scissors , how often should the rock win?"

You seem to be answering the question "how often should each unit be used?"

Of course, the problem with my interpretation is that he suggested 20-25% of the time, which is an impossible answer, as Hawkspeed pointed out. I guess I figured he was thinking 20-25% more than the disfavored unit.
 
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Jeremy Lennert
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kusinohki wrote:
Trying to remember an extra credits episode ... I think it was titled "imperfect balance". Part of it talked about Magic and the meta environment. Looked at individually, deck A is the most powerful, deck C is the weakest but does really well against deck A (deck B is inbetween). Due to the RPS nature, people started switching to deck C since so many were using A. After a while, people started using B more because of all the Cs and things went a little cyclic there.

I believe that was the episode where they made the newbie mistake of claiming that Chess is symmetric and StarCraft is not. shake

But the basic principle you're describing is just that these things naturally break into cycles of 3. If I wanted to do X, but Y counters X, then I can't do X as long as you're doing Y. But as soon as you switch to doing something else (Z), I don't need to try to counter Z, I can just go back to doing X like I originally wanted, because you are no longer stopping me. Since we started by saying that X is desirable in a vacuum, it essentially "counters" everything by default, and you need to specifically stop me from doing it.

Just how desirable that particular outcome is is open to debate.
 
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Geoffrey Burrell
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Then it goes to who is stronger level wise.
 
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