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Subject: A Few Unrelated Questions. rss

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First question isn't game play related but due to card pricing surprise.

1. 'Vorlon' (and to a lesser extent 'Vorlon Renegade'). This card tends be $60-$90 on the rare occasions I've noticed it for sale, fortunately I already have 3 copies. The question though would be is this just rarity or is there some game play use I'm missing. It is strong, but between the high cost and only being able to participate is conflicts requiring Vorlon or Shadow marks, they don't appear to be particularly playable.

I am aware that Wheel of Fire and Crusade do have serious price inflation compared to earlier sets, partially due to fewer cards hitting the market but for a price this high it feels like there should be something more than rarity involved.



2. Now a game play question, related to another new deck I'm working on. The deck happens to be a Minbari deck which includes 'Honored Position' (a conflict which, if won, allows you to bring a copy of Jeffrey Sinclair from outside the game into play). The question is does he still have the Human vote in this case, or does it require 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' to give it to him? I expect 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' is required and Sinclair is comparable to an ambassador in asylum in this case, but I wanted to make sure. Either way a side effect is looking a deck that could control the Babylon 5 vote in a three player game (Sinclair, another 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' on Neroon and Kosh for the Vorlon vote. If the deck wasn't already getting cramped, I'd consider 'Non-Aligned Support' as well).

Past experience says I should be safe from this being ruined by either Ulkesh or the ISA being played and humans are played rarely enough to avoid denying me Sinclair. Only downside is Kosh's play requirements allow my least favorite card in the game, Stasis, to be played as well. Though I am including Servants of Order to help burn of unnecessary Vorlon Marks.
 
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Pasi Ojala
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Get the Imperial Assault Campaign module for Vassal from http://www.vassalengine.org/wiki/Module:Star_Wars:_Imperial_Assault
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Vorlon and Vorlon Renegade are R1 rares, i.e. only one of them per sheet.

Press sheets contain 100 cards. Each sheet represents a card rarity (common, uncommon, or rare). A certain number of each card is printed on its corresponding rarity sheet. Thus, an R2 card appears twice on 1 Rare sheet. The lower the number, the rarer the card.

 
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Michael Schwarz
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ThatOtherGuy wrote:
2. Now a game play question, related to another new deck I'm working on. The deck happens to be a Minbari deck which includes 'Honored Position' (a conflict which, if won, allows you to bring a copy of Jeffrey Sinclair from outside the game into play). The question is does he still have the Human vote in this case, or does it require 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' to give it to him? I expect 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' is required and Sinclair is comparable to an ambassador in asylum in this case, but I wanted to make sure. Either way a side effect is looking a deck that could control the Babylon 5 vote in a three player game (Sinclair, another 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' on Neroon and Kosh for the Vorlon vote. If the deck wasn't already getting cramped, I'd consider 'Non-Aligned Support' as well).

Past experience says I should be safe from this being ruined by either Ulkesh or the ISA being played and humans are played rarely enough to avoid denying me Sinclair. Only downside is Kosh's play requirements allow my least favorite card in the game, Stasis, to be played as well. Though I am including Servants of Order to help burn of unnecessary Vorlon Marks.


No, in that case, Sinclair will act like an ambassador in asylum. That is to say, a supporting character you can't promote through normal means.

Honestly, Honored Position is kinda a non-start in my opinion. It's good if you want to get Entil'Zha into play cheaply, but that's about the extent of its value. And it still doesn't solve the core problem that, if you're playing Minbari, you're risking your opponent starting with Sinclair and torpedoing those cards up front. Particularly if they're using the Captain Sinclair path.
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a1bert wrote:
Vorlon and Vorlon Renegade are R1 rares, i.e. only one of them per sheet.

Press sheets contain 100 cards. Each sheet represents a card rarity (common, uncommon, or rare). A certain number of each card is printed on its corresponding rarity sheet. Thus, an R2 card appears twice on 1 Rare sheet. The lower the number, the rarer the card.



They weren't the only ones though? While some cards are sometimes higher (one ebay seller currently has Emperor Mollari II at $120 but while that also seems rather high he at least has play value on top of rarity), they seem to consistently be the highest cost Wheel of Fire cards and potentially higher than anything in Crusade and I usually only see prices this high and higher with a few of the particularly rare promos.

---

That was the answer I expected with Sinclair. Entil'zha was actually the original reason to include it. I only started thinking about the votes after sticking him and Kosh in. That and I had Affirmation of Peace and Affirmation of Power in the deck, and control of the vote helps those considerably.
 
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No, they are not the only R1 rares. (Check the site if you want to see which ones are R1 and which are R2.)
 
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ThatOtherGuy wrote:

The question though would be is this just rarity or is there some game play use I'm missing. It is strong, but between the high cost and only being able to participate is conflicts requiring Vorlon or Shadow marks, they don't appear to be particularly playable.


You are not missing anything..

- There are not that many (useful) Vorlon conflicts. The only ones I can think of are Vorlon Protection and Vorlon Planet Killer. Maybe the fan made expansions have a few more?

- In my experience the Vorlon card can be a great weapon / deterrent against a Shadow player. But only if he actually plays Shadow conflicts. And this a big if! If he does, you can do twelve damage, even neutralize Inner Circle characters for six or seven turns. Awesome.

- One last thing to consider: playing a Vorlon means not playing your regular characters, fleets, promoting (etc) which will get you influence in the long run.

So.. Awesome? Hell yeah! Worth it? A lot of ifs there..

 
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ThatOtherGuy wrote:
a1bert wrote:
Vorlon and Vorlon Renegade are R1 rares, i.e. only one of them per sheet.

Press sheets contain 100 cards. Each sheet represents a card rarity (common, uncommon, or rare). A certain number of each card is printed on its corresponding rarity sheet. Thus, an R2 card appears twice on 1 Rare sheet. The lower the number, the rarer the card.



They weren't the only ones though? While some cards are sometimes higher (one ebay seller currently has Emperor Mollari II at $120 but while that also seems rather high he at least has play value on top of rarity), they seem to consistently be the highest cost Wheel of Fire cards and potentially higher than anything in Crusade and I usually only see prices this high and higher with a few of the particularly rare promos.


Emperor Mollari was also an R1. Well, technically two separate R1 cards with distinct art. They started doing this in the last two sets, where cards would be printed as double R1, with distinct art. All of the Crusade cast members got two variants (though the Excalibur didn't). In theory, Vorlon and Vorlon Renegade seemed to be an alternate version pattern, except they're actually distinct cards. I could be wrong, but I think the two versions of Lockley in Wheel of Fire were also R1s. Though I don't think she got an R1 in Crusade. I also remember there were a couple random R1s in Crusade, but I can't remember the details.
 
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StarkeRealm wrote:
ThatOtherGuy wrote:
2. Now a game play question, related to another new deck I'm working on. The deck happens to be a Minbari deck which includes 'Honored Position' (a conflict which, if won, allows you to bring a copy of Jeffrey Sinclair from outside the game into play). The question is does he still have the Human vote in this case, or does it require 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' to give it to him? I expect 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' is required and Sinclair is comparable to an ambassador in asylum in this case, but I wanted to make sure. Either way a side effect is looking a deck that could control the Babylon 5 vote in a three player game (Sinclair, another 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' on Neroon and Kosh for the Vorlon vote. If the deck wasn't already getting cramped, I'd consider 'Non-Aligned Support' as well).

Past experience says I should be safe from this being ruined by either Ulkesh or the ISA being played and humans are played rarely enough to avoid denying me Sinclair. Only downside is Kosh's play requirements allow my least favorite card in the game, Stasis, to be played as well. Though I am including Servants of Order to help burn of unnecessary Vorlon Marks.


No, in that case, Sinclair will act like an ambassador in asylum. That is to say, a supporting character you can't promote through normal means


Just to point that out: the reason for Jeffrey Sinclair not being able to be promoted is that he is missing his value. After you replace him with Entil'Zha you would be able to put him into the Inner Circle.

StarkeRealm wrote:
Honestly, Honored Position is kinda a non-start in my opinion. It's good if you want to get Entil'Zha into play cheaply, but that's about the extent of its value. And it still doesn't solve the core problem that, if you're playing Minbari, you're risking your opponent starting with Sinclair and torpedoing those cards up front. Particularly if they're using the Captain Sinclair path.


I do agree with Michael here. As soon as you come with Honored Position, players will not allow you to go through. I tried. And failed. :D

And yes, Acknowledge Legitimacy would be needed to give him / you the voting right. I like the idea though. I have always been a fan of non-standard decks and voting decks are kinda weird thing to play. :) Quite fun but hard to pull off. Let us know how it went when you played it!
 
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axolos wrote:
StarkeRealm wrote:
ThatOtherGuy wrote:
2. Now a game play question, related to another new deck I'm working on. The deck happens to be a Minbari deck which includes 'Honored Position' (a conflict which, if won, allows you to bring a copy of Jeffrey Sinclair from outside the game into play). The question is does he still have the Human vote in this case, or does it require 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' to give it to him? I expect 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' is required and Sinclair is comparable to an ambassador in asylum in this case, but I wanted to make sure. Either way a side effect is looking a deck that could control the Babylon 5 vote in a three player game (Sinclair, another 'Acknowledge Legitimacy' on Neroon and Kosh for the Vorlon vote. If the deck wasn't already getting cramped, I'd consider 'Non-Aligned Support' as well).

Past experience says I should be safe from this being ruined by either Ulkesh or the ISA being played and humans are played rarely enough to avoid denying me Sinclair. Only downside is Kosh's play requirements allow my least favorite card in the game, Stasis, to be played as well. Though I am including Servants of Order to help burn of unnecessary Vorlon Marks.


No, in that case, Sinclair will act like an ambassador in asylum. That is to say, a supporting character you can't promote through normal means


Just to point that out: the reason for Jeffrey Sinclair not being able to be promoted is that he is missing his value. After you replace him with Entil'Zha you would be able to put him into the Inner Circle.


I should probably explain this rule, because it's actually very significant in other cases.

Cards without a cost bubble are considered to have an "undefined" cost. This is not the same as a card having a zero cost.

Cards and rule interactions that interact with a card's cost fizzle when presented with a card that has no printed cost.

This includes ambassador cards, and is why you can't sponsor ambassadors who aren't in play, or promote ones that some how ended up in your supporting row.

You can't apply an undefined amount of influence to sponsor a card or promote it.

This is also why you'll see cards that are specifically worded to key off how much influence your opponent applied, rather than a card's cost.

To play a character without a printed cost means you need other methods to get them on the board.

They can still be promoted by cards that simply move a character to your inner circle.

I vaguely recall a couple fleets without a cost bubble, maybe the United ones, I don't remember which, though.

axolos wrote:
StarkeRealm wrote:
Honestly, Honored Position is kinda a non-start in my opinion. It's good if you want to get Entil'Zha into play cheaply, but that's about the extent of its value. And it still doesn't solve the core problem that, if you're playing Minbari, you're risking your opponent starting with Sinclair and torpedoing those cards up front. Particularly if they're using the Captain Sinclair path.


I do agree with Michael here. As soon as you come with Honored Position, players will not allow you to go through. I tried. And failed.

And yes, Acknowledge Legitimacy would be needed to give him / you the voting right. I like the idea though. I have always been a fan of non-standard decks and voting decks are kinda weird thing to play. Quite fun but hard to pull off. Let us know how it went when you played it!


The real use for cards like Honored Position or Strike at the Heart were for "narrative" decks. You'd use them in decks designed to tell a story rather than strictly competitive ones. To my mind, Acknowledge Legitimacy was always on the edge of being one of these.

To be fair, this is a legitimate way to play the game. It's even encouraged in the rulebook. But, it is a different animal from competitive decks.

I'm bringing this up because I'm wracking my brain trying to come up with a good use for stacking votes. All I can come up with is Affirmation of Peace. But, nothing else comes to mind.
 
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