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Subject: can you spray fire if taking evasive action rss

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AMOS BURKE
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can you spray fire if taking evasive action yes or no
simple
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Jim P
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420017 wrote:
can you spray fire if taking evasive action yes or no
simple
Amos


I don't think a simple yes or no answer should be given as there are many aspects to take into account. But here it goes....

Your personal games, YES (why not)

In the 281st BG(H) campaign, NO (because it isn't just a Y or N answer)
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Frank
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jasta6 wrote:

In the 281st BG(H) campaign, NO (because it isn't just a Y or N answer)

Jim,

Please, can you clarify why?

Thanks
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Jim P
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FrUnit7 wrote:
jasta6 wrote:

In the 281st BG(H) campaign, NO (because it isn't just a Y or N answer)

Jim,

Please, can you clarify why?

Thanks


I'll post a quick list of my thoughts that have to be addressed to keep it in line with the game and the flavor of the 281st BG(H) historical flavor.

1) Evasive maneuvers have a negative modifier for shooting, how do you apply to the current games spray fire table?

2) How would a gunner manage spray fire while the plane is convulsing through the pilots maneuvers?

3) With the current D6 setup on the Spray Fire table I feel the 16.7% chance to hit the enemy fighter is high with respect to spray firing during Evasive Maneuvers.

4) With the planes erratic movement during Evasive Maneuvers the gunners attempts to shoot would probably already be a form of Spray Fire...

That is my thoughts. As for someones personal games I feel they can experiment with different game mechanics. That is how we get workable variants for games. Maybe we could get a usable variant for Evasive Spray Fire in the future if it is worked out.

Jim cool
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Frank
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IMO evasive maneuvers have a negative modifier to aiming, not to shooting.

As spray fire represents long bursts of unaimed spray of bullets, I don't think it should be penalized by evasive maneuvers. Your bursts of tracers should still impress German pilots the same way, and with the same lucky 16.7% chance to hit.
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I think we should have a rule where every Bomber in the squadron should spray fire at the same time...

with all that lead in the air their bound to hit the enemy fighters

Spray Fire so thick you could get out and walk on it..
comes to mind whistle

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AMOS BURKE
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FrUnit7 wrote:
As spray fire represents long bursts of unaimed spray of bullets, I don't think it should be penalized by evasive maneuvers. Your bursts of tracers should still impress German pilots the same way, and with the same lucky 16.7% chance to hit.


Am going to go for yes as it still a "6" to get a hit
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jasta6 wrote:
FrUnit7 wrote:
jasta6 wrote:

In the 281st BG(H) campaign, NO (because it isn't just a Y or N answer)

Jim,

Please, can you clarify why?

Thanks


I'll post a quick list of my thoughts that have to be addressed to keep it in line with the game and the flavor of the 281st BG(H) historical flavor.

1) Evasive maneuvers have a negative modifier for shooting, how do you apply to the current games spray fire table?

2) How would a gunner manage spray fire while the plane is convulsing through the pilots maneuvers?

3) With the current D6 setup on the Spray Fire table I feel the 16.7% chance to hit the enemy fighter is high with respect to spray firing during Evasive Maneuvers.

4) With the planes erratic movement during Evasive Maneuvers the gunners attempts to shoot would probably already be a form of Spray Fire...

That is my thoughts. As for someones personal games I feel they can experiment with different game mechanics. That is how we get workable variants for games. Maybe we could get a usable variant for Evasive Spray Fire in the future if it is worked out.

Jim cool


You could just say with evasive maneuvers that a 6 simply drives the enemy away if you don't think they should be able to hit, but I would think they could still spray.
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Jim P
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FrUnit7 wrote:
IMO evasive maneuvers have a negative modifier to aiming, not to shooting.

As spray fire represents long bursts of unaimed spray of bullets, I don't think it should be penalized by evasive maneuvers. Your bursts of tracers should still impress German pilots the same way, and with the same lucky 16.7% chance to hit.


I respectfully disagree. There is still an element of aiming to the spray fire. As in the game the rules state that you are spraying at a clock and altitude "Spot." For example, 3:00 O'clock-High, and you are filling it with led. If the Fortress is juking and sliding and changing altitude that can/will place the bullets in the wrong "Spot." Besides the crew will also be thrown around and the plane changes attitude in respect to its normal flight.

So can spray fire hit an enemy while the pilot flings the bomber around to avoid getting hit, Yes, but I feel it would be much harder for this to happen.

I played around with expanding the spray fire hit chart at lunch today and have yet to come up with a truly satisfactory result. I do think that there should be a remote chance to hit the enemy aircraft, but less than 16.7%. But this would either greatly influence the middle results.

i.e.

281st BG(H) Current Spray Fire rule(reworked).

M-5: AREA SPRAY FIRE (Revised)
Roll two die per MG using spray fire (a)(c)

1 = Guns Jam (b) | <= added % to jam?!
2 = Guns Jam (b) |
3 = Guns Jam (b) |--------16.7%
4 = Guns Jam (b) |
5 = Enemy Fighter Attacks As Normal |------25.0%
6 = Enemy Fighter Attacks As Normal |
7 = Enemy Fighter ?????? |---16.7% <= how do I divide this up? Do I add it to the Fighter attacks as normal? or the Fighter is Driven Off?
8 = Enemy Fighter Driven Off |
9 = Enemy Fighter Driven Off |------25.0%
10 = Enemy Fighter Hit |
11 = Enemy Fighter Hit |--------16.7%
12 = Enemy Fighter Hit |

NOTE:
(a) Spray fire may only be against 3, 4:30, 6, 7:30, 9 or Vertical Climb
attacks, not against 12, 1:30, 10:30 or Vertical Dive attacks.
(b) A gunner may attempt to fix a jam gun each time the B-17 enters a new zone.
Roll one die: 1,2-gun fixed; 3,4,5-remains jammed; 6-gun broken permanently.
(c) -1 To Hit if pilots are using evasive maneuvers.



281st BG(H) Current Spray Fire rule.

M-5: AREA SPRAY FIRE (Revised)
Roll one die per MG using spray fire (a)

1 Jams (b)/Fighter attacks normally
2 Fighter attacks normally
3 Fighter attacks normally
4 Fighter Breaks off without firing
5 Fighter Breaks off without firing
6 Fighter hit - roll for damage to fighter on Table M-2

NOTE:
(a) Spray fire may only be against 3, 4:30, 6, 7:30, 9 or Vertical Climb
attacks, not against 12, 1:30, 10:30 or Vertical Dive attacks.
(b) A gunner may attempt to fix a jam gun each time the B-17 enters a new zone.
Roll one die: 1,2-gun fixed; 3,4,5-remains jammed; 6-gun broken permanently.


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Jim Rose
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I read the original rules that describes spray fire as "hosing of an area with a long burst of unaimed spray of bullets". That said, I too believe that it was a gamble to hit an attacking fighter. Now add the "random dips, dives, banks, and weaves" into the equation from taking evasive action, and you really need to get lucky for a fighter to break off, let alone hit one.

I like's Jim's rework, but am wondering if a correction is needed since you can't roll a 1 with 2D. Or am I reading the procedure wrong?

Just read it again. The 1 would be rolled if you roll a 2 and add in the -1 modifier for taking evasive action. (Read 3 times, then comment)
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Jim P
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aerogoose wrote:
I read the original rules that describes spray fire as "hosing of an area with a long burst of unaimed spray of bullets". That said, I too believe that it was a gamble to hit an attacking fighter...


But you are aiming at a clock and altitude "Area." As my example, 3:00 o'clock high. If the plane is undulating, that just makes "Aiming" at an "Area" very difficult.

aerogoose wrote:
I like's Jim's rework...

Thanks Jim but what to do with the die roll of "7"? I tend to want to put it towards "Fighter Attacks as Normal" but a 41% plus chance kind of turns me off of that.

Two D6 is a great die roll but every so often you get one of these setups that it just gives you a heartache.
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Frank
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Keep it simple and still use 1D6 as per standard or revised M-5 tables.

You could just apply a -1 modifier. Having no chance to hit the enemy doesn't bother me. That's already the case when firing on an ace pilot with a non-ace gunner.

Modifiers to revised M-5 table could be:
+1 against German green pilot
-1 against German ace pilot
+1 for ace gunner
-1 if B-17 evasive maneuvers


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mixykym wrote:
I think we should have a rule where every Bomber in the squadron should spray fire at the same time...

with all that lead in the air their bound to hit the enemy fighters



And several other B-17s as welllaugh
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Michael
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grinnell1969 wrote:
mixykym wrote:
I think we should have a rule where every Bomber in the squadron should spray fire at the same time...

with all that lead in the air their bound to hit the enemy fighters



And several other B-17s as welllaugh


There's enough of that from aimed fire from other B-17's laugh

Perhaps there will be less instances if they stopped aiming laugh
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Jim P
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OK is this what your thinking Frank.

281st BG(H) (re-reworked)

M-5: AREA SPRAY FIRE (Revised)
Roll one die per MG using spray fire (a) (c)

1 Jams (b)(d)/Fighter attacks normally
2 Fighter attacks normally
3 Fighter attacks normally
4 Fighter Breaks off without firing
5 Fighter Breaks off without firing
6 Fighter hit - roll for damage to fighter on Table M-2

NOTE:
(a) Spray fire may only be against 3, 4:30, 6, 7:30, 9 or Vertical Climb
attacks, not against 12, 1:30, 10:30 or Vertical Dive attacks.
(b) A gunner may attempt to fix a jam gun each time the B-17 enters a new zone.
Roll one die: 1,2-gun fixed; 3,4,5-remains jammed; 6-gun broken permanently.
(c) -1 To Hit if pilots are using evasive maneuvers. Ace gunners still get their +1 bonus.
(d) your guns will only jam on a un-modified roll of 1.


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Rob Koch
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You could also modify (c) to add that no Ace Gunner bonus is allowed during evasive maneuvers, though this is changing rule 15.1b but only for spray fire.
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jasta6 wrote:
OK is this what your thinking Frank.

Yes exactly.

Other modifiers (green/ace pilot, ace gunner) still apply.

So an ace gunner using spray fire against a veteran pilot during evasive maneuvers rolls on the table with no modifier (+1 -1 = 0).

But a normal gunner doing the same against an ace pilot would be at -2 on the table: only 16.7% chance to make the enemy break off and 50% chance to jam his gun. Risky!
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Jim P
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FrUnit7 wrote:
jasta6 wrote:
OK is this what your thinking Frank.

Yes exactly.

Other modifiers (green/ace pilot, ace gunner) still apply.

So an ace gunner using spray fire against a veteran pilot during evasive maneuvers rolls on the table with no modifier (+1 -1 = 0).

But a normal gunner doing the same against an ace pilot would be at -2 on the table: only 16.7% chance to make the enemy break off and 50% chance to jam his gun. Risky!


You would drop my added Modifier that only a natural 1 would jam the gun. My thinking is that the excessive shooting is the same if the enemy pilot is an ace or green. plus the evasive movement wouldn't effect the over heating of the gun.

Your guys thoughts?
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Frank
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blush Sorry Jim. My mistake!

I didn't pay attention to note (d) but I plainly agree with it though.
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grinnell1969 wrote:
mixykym wrote:
I think we should have a rule where every Bomber in the squadron should spray fire at the same time...

with all that lead in the air their bound to hit the enemy fighters



And several other B-17s as welllaugh


If everyone is using spray fire there should be a +3 modifier to the Formation Defensive Gunnery rule.
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Jim P
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Limburger59 wrote:
grinnell1969 wrote:
mixykym wrote:
I think we should have a rule where every Bomber in the squadron should spray fire at the same time...

with all that lead in the air their bound to hit the enemy fighters



And several other B-17s as welllaugh


If everyone is using spray fire there should be a +3 modifier to the Formation Defensive Gunnery rule.


shake There is already a provision in the game charts for formation defensive fire. It is the 1/6th chance of rolling for enemy fighters that ends in "6". ie 16, 26, 36, 46 and 56, 66 is Random Events. Now how in Gods green earth will we be able to know that "ALL" bombers were firing "Spray Fire" in the same zone in this campaigns format... We can't.

Nice try guys devil
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robkoch2112 wrote:
You could also modify (c) to add that no Ace Gunner bonus is allowed during evasive maneuvers, though this is changing rule 15.1b but only for spray fire.


Good call, I'll add that note to this chart. But it doesn't really change rule 15.1. You still only "Hit" on a 6 and rule 15.1 allows for ace gunner bonus too.

Oops I miss read your post, the ace gunner bonus would apply. Spray fire and evasive maneuvers both allow the use of ace gunners so I see no reason to alter this.
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Rob Koch
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Follow the KISS rule ... I just wanted to point out that the exclusion could be applied to spray fire only when under evasive maneuvers. If you're an Ace you get your bonus always (unless wounded or frostbitten if I recall) and at your station.
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