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Subject: Received my package. It's an. Expansion. rss

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Richard Morgan
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I just received my Kickstarter reward for backing Simurgh this morning. I excitedly opened it up only to read on the box the word 'Expansion'. I thought this was odd because I don't remember backing any expansion project. I looked at the Kickstarter page again. I backed the $34 level. It says:

One copy of Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord + all stretch goals.

I thought well there's nothing wrong with that. No mention of an expansion so I assumed it was one of the stretch goals. I also thought that's mighty cheap for a base game plus an expansion, and the expansion comes in a big box!

However upon further analysis it now seems that "Call of the Dragonlord" is not a subtitle for the base game but is the name of the expansion.

What on earth?

It is extremely unclear. It does not say "expansion". I always go for the cheapest reward level that gets me the game and that was the cheapest reward level with no mention of the term "expansion" in the text.

What on earth am I going to do with just an expansion?
 
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John James
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You can sell it, or buy the base game. Only the expansion comes with the KS extras. Someone will buy it, they didn't make a million of them.
 
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Yeah, I feel your pain. I bought the third expansion of Race for the Galaxy (retail), not wanting a ton of expansions and reading reviews that it was the "best". It wasn't at all clear anywhere that you couldn't play this without the first two until I got it and realized that there's not enough there to add it to the game, leaving me with a useless expansion.

I've found that NSKN's games are fun, but things are not *quite* polished to perfection, at least in the English versions. Very small omissions in rulebooks and things like this. It's no excuse for them, but a suggestion to protect yourself on future projects would be to scan all the reward levels, at least. I do this with all projects on Kickstarter just to be clear on what I'm getting and not getting with the rewards.
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Richard Morgan
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Doomsword wrote:
You can sell it, or buy the base game. Only the expansion comes with the KS extras. Someone will buy it, they didn't make a million of them.


I've asked them for a full refund.
 
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Russell Griffin
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I would buy the expansion from you if the shipping isn't too bad from Canada to the US.

Email me if interested.
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richiebabes wrote:
Doomsword wrote:
You can sell it, or buy the base game. Only the expansion comes with the KS extras. Someone will buy it, they didn't make a million of them.


I've asked them for a full refund.


Why should they give you a refund? Makes no sense... this was your mistake, your only "valid" claim is that in the place where you click to make the pledge it doesn't say "Expansion"... but it's very clear in the KS project page what is the Expansion, what is the base game, etc, etc, etc...

You can't blame others for not knowing what was clear in the Ks and what's clear here on BGG, Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord is an expansion and needs the base game to be played...

If I was NSKN you wouldn't receive any refund unless you returned the game unopened and paying the shipping costs...

Suck it up... it was your mistake now you can do one of 2 things:
- Buy the base game
- Sell the expansion

Asking for a refund is just not owning up to your errors
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Richard Morgan
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I disagree. The customer is always right. Their pledge levels are deceptive.
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Richard Morgan
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Ordman wrote:
I would buy the expansion from you if the shipping isn't too bad from Canada to the US.

Email me if interested.


About $25 to mail it to the States. Not cheap. It is unopened though, still in shrink wrap.
 
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Darryl with one "R"
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richiebabes wrote:
The customer is always right.

Customer: You sent me exactly what I ordered, but it's the wrong thing!
Seller: ???
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richiebabes wrote:
I disagree. The customer is always right. Their pledge levels are deceptive.


The pledge levels were succinct and not overly wordy as a good Kickstarter should be. The Kickstarter page was very explicit about what was being kickstarted and had a break down for each pledge level. You TL;DR'd it and payed for it, so that's not really NSKN's fault.

Honestly just grab the base game and then you'll have all the Kickstarter extra's to go with it. Or you could (as was suggested) just put it up on the geek market. If you price it fairly people will jump on it.
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richiebabes wrote:
The customer is always right.


You'll find that's something that almost no business ascribes to anymore. For good reasons - it's wrong.
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richiebabes wrote:
I disagree. The customer is always right. Their pledge levels are deceptive.


How can something be deceptive if it's clearly explained in the Project Page...

They didn't need to write anything in the reward... they could just say: Reward 1... and then explain on the page what's reward 1... if you back reward 1 without reading the rest of the page and receive reward 1 later what are you complaining about? Why is the customer always right? That's a fallacy and you are clearly just looking to get some free stuff!
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Richard Morgan
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Muse23PT wrote:
richiebabes wrote:
I disagree. The customer is always right. Their pledge levels are deceptive.


How can something be deceptive if it's clearly explained in the Project Page...

They didn't need to write anything in the reward... they could just say: Reward 1... and then explain on the page what's reward 1... if you back reward 1 without reading the rest of the page and receive reward 1 later what are you complaining about? Why is the customer always right? That's a fallacy and you are clearly just looking to get some free stuff!


I am not looking to get any free stuff. That's not the sort of person I am.
 
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Richard Morgan
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sakoguru wrote:
richiebabes wrote:
I disagree. The customer is always right. Their pledge levels are deceptive.


The pledge levels were succinct and not overly wordy as a good Kickstarter should be. The Kickstarter page was very explicit about what was being kickstarted and had a break down for each pledge level. You TL;DR'd it and payed for it, so that's not really NSKN's fault.

Honestly just grab the base game and then you'll have all the Kickstarter extra's to go with it. Or you could (as was suggested) just put it up on the geek market. If you price it fairly people will jump on it.


What does "TL;DR'd" mean?
 
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Luke Turner
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richiebabes wrote:


What does "TL;DR'd" mean?

TL;DR stands for "To long; didn't read"
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richiebabes wrote:
What does "TL;DR'd" mean?
Too long so I did not bother to read it.

You will probably get your money back, but this one really is your own fault. Sometimes it is tough to admit it when "you" make a mistake - It happens.
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Martin Gallo
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richiebabes wrote:
I just received my Kickstarter reward for backing Simurgh this morning.
Uhm, you received the EXPANSION YOU MADE A PLEDGE FOR. (Sorry for shouting like that. Also sorry for ending the sentence with a preposition.)

Complaining about what you paid for is not exactly a valid complaint.
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richiebabes wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
richiebabes wrote:
I disagree. The customer is always right. Their pledge levels are deceptive.


How can something be deceptive if it's clearly explained in the Project Page...

They didn't need to write anything in the reward... they could just say: Reward 1... and then explain on the page what's reward 1... if you back reward 1 without reading the rest of the page and receive reward 1 later what are you complaining about? Why is the customer always right? That's a fallacy and you are clearly just looking to get some free stuff!


I am not looking to get any free stuff. That's not the sort of person I am.


That's what you say but excuse me if I don't really believe you at this point...

You got what you pledge for... if that pledge wasn't what you wanted it's because YOU made a mistake...

You would be entitled to a refund if the Reward Pledge was saying that you would get the base game and the KS page was saying something different... that would be a different case...

The reality is that the Reward Pledge says you get Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord + All Stretch Goals

Then in the KS Page to the left it clearly explains what Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord is...

It never says it's the base game, it clearly says it's an expansion and that the base game is needed...
What more do you want? it's all laid there... if you didn't took the time to read the page and decided to back at that level because you thought it was the base game that's really your fault and no one else's!!

And for you to say that because of this, because of your error you decided to demand a refund and the reason for that is that the "Customer is always right", you have to excuse me but you are just trying to get some free stuff!

Man up and take some responsibility for your actions and your errors!!

Like I said it before, either buy the base game or sell the expansion you received...

If you sell it now I'm sure you'll even get more for it than what you paid! There's only 1 copy in the Marketplace in the US, none in Canada, and that copy in the states has an asking price of $50... you paid $34 for yours, so just put it up for $45 and you'll make some money...

Asking for a refund is just not being able to recognize that you are the one that's wrong, the one that made the mistake, not taking responsibility for your choices and actions and really it just makes you look bad!
 
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Richard Morgan
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Muse23PT wrote:
richiebabes wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
richiebabes wrote:
I disagree. The customer is always right. Their pledge levels are deceptive.


How can something be deceptive if it's clearly explained in the Project Page...

They didn't need to write anything in the reward... they could just say: Reward 1... and then explain on the page what's reward 1... if you back reward 1 without reading the rest of the page and receive reward 1 later what are you complaining about? Why is the customer always right? That's a fallacy and you are clearly just looking to get some free stuff!


I am not looking to get any free stuff. That's not the sort of person I am.


That's what you say but excuse me if I don't really believe you at this point...

You got what you pledge for... if that pledge wasn't what you wanted it's because YOU made a mistake...

You would be entitled to a refund if the Reward Pledge was saying that you would get the base game and the KS page was saying something different... that would be a different case...

The reality is that the Reward Pledge says you get Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord + All Stretch Goals

Then in the KS Page to the left it clearly explains what Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord is...

It never says it's the base game, it clearly says it's an expansion and that the base game is needed...
What more do you want? it's all laid there... if you didn't took the time to read the page and decided to back at that level because you thought it was the base game that's really your fault and no one else's!!

And for you to say that because of this, because of your error you decided to demand a refund and the reason for that is that the "Customer is always right", you have to excuse me but you are just trying to get some free stuff!

Man up and take some responsibility for your actions and your errors!!

Like I said it before, either buy the base game or sell the expansion you received...

If you sell it now I'm sure you'll even get more for it than what you paid! There's only 1 copy in the Marketplace in the US, none in Canada, and that copy in the states has an asking price of $50... you paid $34 for yours, so just put it up for $45 and you'll make some money...

Asking for a refund is just not being able to recognize that you are the one that's wrong, the one that made the mistake, not taking responsibility for your choices and actions and really it just makes you look bad!


I completely disagree with everything you wrote. I am not looking for free stuff. I am looking for a refund which would, of course, include sending the game back to them. I am obviously not looking to keep the expansion.

Secondly this is different to every single other pledge list I have ever seen and I have backed a lot of projects. None of the other projects ever have it set up like this. If I misread it then I apologize but it was very unclear and deceptive. Not purposefully so, but deceptive all the same.
 
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Richard Morgan
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sakoguru wrote:
richiebabes wrote:


What does "TL;DR'd" mean?

TL;DR stands for "To long; didn't read"


Why couldn't you type that instead of the initial letters?
 
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richiebabes wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
richiebabes wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
richiebabes wrote:
I disagree. The customer is always right. Their pledge levels are deceptive.


How can something be deceptive if it's clearly explained in the Project Page...

They didn't need to write anything in the reward... they could just say: Reward 1... and then explain on the page what's reward 1... if you back reward 1 without reading the rest of the page and receive reward 1 later what are you complaining about? Why is the customer always right? That's a fallacy and you are clearly just looking to get some free stuff!


I am not looking to get any free stuff. That's not the sort of person I am.


That's what you say but excuse me if I don't really believe you at this point...

You got what you pledge for... if that pledge wasn't what you wanted it's because YOU made a mistake...

You would be entitled to a refund if the Reward Pledge was saying that you would get the base game and the KS page was saying something different... that would be a different case...

The reality is that the Reward Pledge says you get Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord + All Stretch Goals

Then in the KS Page to the left it clearly explains what Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord is...

It never says it's the base game, it clearly says it's an expansion and that the base game is needed...
What more do you want? it's all laid there... if you didn't took the time to read the page and decided to back at that level because you thought it was the base game that's really your fault and no one else's!!

And for you to say that because of this, because of your error you decided to demand a refund and the reason for that is that the "Customer is always right", you have to excuse me but you are just trying to get some free stuff!

Man up and take some responsibility for your actions and your errors!!

Like I said it before, either buy the base game or sell the expansion you received...

If you sell it now I'm sure you'll even get more for it than what you paid! There's only 1 copy in the Marketplace in the US, none in Canada, and that copy in the states has an asking price of $50... you paid $34 for yours, so just put it up for $45 and you'll make some money...

Asking for a refund is just not being able to recognize that you are the one that's wrong, the one that made the mistake, not taking responsibility for your choices and actions and really it just makes you look bad!


I completely disagree with everything you wrote. I am not looking for free stuff. I am looking for a refund which would, of course, include sending the game back to them. I am obviously not looking to keep the expansion.

Secondly this is different to every single other pledge list I have ever seen and I have backed a lot of projects. None of the other projects ever have it set up like this. If I misread it then I apologize but it was very unclear and deceptive. Not purposefully so, but deceptive all the same.


The problem I think you had is that the base game had already been published prior to the expansion Kickstarter campaign.

Kickstarter orders pledge levels not by priority (as some other services do), but by price. So: the "get the expansion" level is above the "get the base game and expansion" level.

It's a simple mistake. And yes, they could have added the word "expansion" to the level, buuuuuut . . . the whole Kickstarter was for the expansion. The base game was something additional you could get at certain levels, with the expansion.

So their assumption that potential backers would understand what they were backing, if they reviewed the page, is not completely unfair.

Oh, and the phrase "the customer is always right" gets used wrong a lot. What it doesn't mean is, "drop to your knees because I am the customer." What it does mean is, "treat the customer like they're always right." Basically, it's a training tool for employees.
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Richard Morgan
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ohbalto wrote:
The problem I think you had is that the base game had already been published prior to the expansion Kickstarter campaign.

Kickstarter orders pledge levels not by priority (as some other services do), but by price. So: the "get the expansion" level is above the "get the base game and expansion" level.

It's a simple mistake. And yes, they could have added the word "expansion" to the level, buuuuuut . . . the whole Kickstarter was for the expansion. The base game was something additional you could get at certain levels, with the expansion.

So their assumption that potential backers would understand what they were backing, if they reviewed the page, is not completely unfair.

Oh, and the phrase "the customer is always right" gets used wrong a lot. What it doesn't mean is, "drop to your knees because I am the customer." What it does mean is, "treat the customer like they're always right." Basically, it's a training tool for employees.


It doesn't say anything about it being an expansion project. They have the base game and the expansion showing at the top. Nothing there says "this is just for the expansion and by the way you can add the base game."
 
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richiebabes wrote:


It doesn't say anything about it being an expansion project. They have the base game and the expansion showing at the top. Nothing there says "this is just for the expansion and by the way you can add the base game."

First paragraph of the campaign description:
Quote:
Simurgh is a unique strategy game set in a vibrant fantasy world where humans, mythical beasts and ancient magic coexist.

In Simurgh players build the might and wealth of powerful noble houses by exploring and exploiting new lands, recruiting new followers and breeding the titular dragons to make use of their special abilities.
Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord is a premium expansion telling the next chapter of the history of the White City. Adding new tiles, a new board and the Wizard - a new Vassal that brings his powerful magic into the epic struggle of White City's factions.


I didn't back this game. I don't care about this game. I just happened to click on this thread from the front page. After looking at the Kickstarter page....it was ridiculously obvious that it was an expansion, and it was absolutely not unclear or deceptive.

Ask for your money back, but quit blaming the campaign. This was your mistake 100%. We all make mistakes, and hopefully the publisher understands that...
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richiebabes wrote:
I completely disagree with everything you wrote.
holds true for everything you have said here.

You are trying to undo your own mistake by involving other people AND you made your mistake public (looking for sympathy? Looking for thumbs? I do not really understand why this became a BGG issue).

But, my opinion has absolutely no effect on you so carry on. Facts do not seem to have any effect on your decisions either. What an odd situation.
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richiebabes wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
richiebabes wrote:
Muse23PT wrote:
richiebabes wrote:
I disagree. The customer is always right. Their pledge levels are deceptive.


How can something be deceptive if it's clearly explained in the Project Page...

They didn't need to write anything in the reward... they could just say: Reward 1... and then explain on the page what's reward 1... if you back reward 1 without reading the rest of the page and receive reward 1 later what are you complaining about? Why is the customer always right? That's a fallacy and you are clearly just looking to get some free stuff!


I am not looking to get any free stuff. That's not the sort of person I am.


That's what you say but excuse me if I don't really believe you at this point...

You got what you pledge for... if that pledge wasn't what you wanted it's because YOU made a mistake...

You would be entitled to a refund if the Reward Pledge was saying that you would get the base game and the KS page was saying something different... that would be a different case...

The reality is that the Reward Pledge says you get Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord + All Stretch Goals

Then in the KS Page to the left it clearly explains what Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord is...

It never says it's the base game, it clearly says it's an expansion and that the base game is needed...
What more do you want? it's all laid there... if you didn't took the time to read the page and decided to back at that level because you thought it was the base game that's really your fault and no one else's!!

And for you to say that because of this, because of your error you decided to demand a refund and the reason for that is that the "Customer is always right", you have to excuse me but you are just trying to get some free stuff!

Man up and take some responsibility for your actions and your errors!!

Like I said it before, either buy the base game or sell the expansion you received...

If you sell it now I'm sure you'll even get more for it than what you paid! There's only 1 copy in the Marketplace in the US, none in Canada, and that copy in the states has an asking price of $50... you paid $34 for yours, so just put it up for $45 and you'll make some money...

Asking for a refund is just not being able to recognize that you are the one that's wrong, the one that made the mistake, not taking responsibility for your choices and actions and really it just makes you look bad!


I completely disagree with everything you wrote. I am not looking for free stuff. I am looking for a refund which would, of course, include sending the game back to them. I am obviously not looking to keep the expansion.

Secondly this is different to every single other pledge list I have ever seen and I have backed a lot of projects. None of the other projects ever have it set up like this. If I misread it then I apologize but it was very unclear and deceptive. Not purposefully so, but deceptive all the same.


Are you going to pay the shipping costs if they accept to refund you? or are you expecting them to pay for the shipping also? or even tell you to keep the expansion?

Why in the world don't you just SELL the bloody expansion man?!? you have sold TONS of games on the BGG marketplace, so that's nothing new to you... You can even get more money for it than what you paid... I really don't understand what is your problem!

Why are you trying to get a refund from a small company for having sent you what you pledge for?

It seems you just want to be difficult because you can... I really don't get people like you...

Man up... your mistake... your error... your problem! I really hope that NSKN has the guts to say a big fat NO to you. You are completely wrong and just being a bad customer!



richiebabes wrote:
ohbalto wrote:
The problem I think you had is that the base game had already been published prior to the expansion Kickstarter campaign.

Kickstarter orders pledge levels not by priority (as some other services do), but by price. So: the "get the expansion" level is above the "get the base game and expansion" level.

It's a simple mistake. And yes, they could have added the word "expansion" to the level, buuuuuut . . . the whole Kickstarter was for the expansion. The base game was something additional you could get at certain levels, with the expansion.

So their assumption that potential backers would understand what they were backing, if they reviewed the page, is not completely unfair.

Oh, and the phrase "the customer is always right" gets used wrong a lot. What it doesn't mean is, "drop to your knees because I am the customer." What it does mean is, "treat the customer like they're always right." Basically, it's a training tool for employees.


It doesn't say anything about it being an expansion project. They have the base game and the expansion showing at the top. Nothing there says "this is just for the expansion and by the way you can add the base game."


Again, it seems like you have some problem reading what other people write...

David said that you could get the base game in the KS project, so why are you telling him that?!?!?

Everyone that has read the KS page knows that you could get the Base game and the Expansion...

Everyone that read the KS page knows the base game is called Simurgh

Everyone that read the KS page knows the expansion is called Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord

Also, quoting from the KS project page, where they start to describe the Project:

Quote:
Simurgh is a unique strategy game set in a vibrant fantasy world where humans, mythical beasts and ancient magic coexist.

In Simurgh players build the might and wealth of powerful noble houses by exploring and exploiting new lands, recruiting new followers and breeding the titular dragons to make use of their special abilities.

Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord is a premium expansion telling the next chapter of the history of the White City. Adding new tiles, a new board and the Wizard - a new Vassal that brings his powerful magic into the epic struggle of White City's factions.


Notice the difference between Simurg and Simurgh: Call of the Dragonlord?!?!?!

Then they list what the base game has and what the expansion has... didn't you see that?!?!?

Then they list the various pledge levels with the same box images they used above to identify the Base game and the Expansion...

And you thought the base game would be cheaper than the Expansion?!? Does that make any sense?

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