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Subject: Joining pillage when all figures are already in a province rss

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John Keel
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Tried to find this elsewhere so apologies if I missed it. Here is the scenario:

One player has all of their available figures already in Yggdrasil and decides to pillage. Now, per the rules, we go around the table to the left and players either join or pass. Now, when it gets back to the original player, since they have all their figures are already in place and they can't add any more, does the battle begin or do we keep going around if other players can still join?

Thanks, as always, for clarification.
 
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Kevin Marema
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You keep going around until everyone passes.

In addition, if you pass once, that doesn't necessarily mean you're out. When it comes back around to you, after you have previously passed, you can change your mind and join in.
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Kevin Rush
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You keep going until everyone has passed and does not want to bring anymore figures into the battle.
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Tyrell Wood
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Valenso wrote:
You keep going around until everyone passes.

In addition, if you pass once, that doesn't necessarily mean you're out. When it comes back around to you, after you have previously passed, you can change your mind and join in.


Is there any official ruling on this? When we play, it is if you pass you may no longer bring figures in and only players who have not passed can continue to do so.
 
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James
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tyrellrwood wrote:
Valenso wrote:
You keep going around until everyone passes.

In addition, if you pass once, that doesn't necessarily mean you're out. When it comes back around to you, after you have previously passed, you can change your mind and join in.


Is there any official ruling on this? When we play, it is if you pass you may no longer bring figures in and only players who have not passed can continue to do so.


It is in the rule book, page 17:
"Once all villages in that province are occupied,
or when no one else wishes to join in, the battle begins."

Implies that at any time, if there is space and anyone else wants to join in, whether they've previously passed or not, the battle does not yet begin.

Also in the official faq pdf:
Q. When there is a Call to Battle, can
I move another unit in after I have
passed?
A. Yes. Players can always bring units
into a battle, until nobody else wants
to, or all Villages are occupied.
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Matheus Affonso
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tyrellrwood wrote:
Valenso wrote:
You keep going around until everyone passes.

In addition, if you pass once, that doesn't necessarily mean you're out. When it comes back around to you, after you have previously passed, you can change your mind and join in.


Is there any official ruling on this? When we play, it is if you pass you may no longer bring figures in and only players who have not passed can continue to do so.


Yes, there is. Official FAQ (https://cmon-files.s3.amazonaws.com/pdf/assets_item/resource...), fourth question:

Quote:
Q. When there is a Call to Battle, can I move another unit in after I have passed?
A. Yes. Players can always bring units into a battle, until nobody else wants to, or all Villages are occupied.


Edit: ninja
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John Keel
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But, that wording - "... or when no one else wishes to join in ..." - is exactly what is throwing me, although the answer seems pretty clear. .

If the player initiating the pillage has ALL their figures already in place in Yggdrasil and it comes back around to them, then they CAN'T join in because they're already all-in (to use a poker term). To me, it's an advantage because it only gives the other players one chance to join, giving the initiator the the best chance of winning.

Ah, semantics. Where would we be without them?
 
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heyheyjk wrote:
But, that wording - "... or when no one else wishes to join in ..." - is exactly what is throwing me, although the answer seems pretty clear. .

If the player initiating the pillage has ALL their figures already in place in Yggdrasil and it comes back around to them, then they CAN'T join in because they're already all-in (to use a poker term). To me, it's an advantage because it only gives the other players one chance to join, giving the initiator the the best chance of winning.

Ah, semantics. Where would we be without them?

The spirit of the rules is to make fights that are as inclusive as possible.

Players continue to have an opportunity to jump in (or reinforce) until one of two things happen: the territory runs out of room, or you establish that nobody wants to join/reinforce (because everyone passed in sequence). In the case of Yggdrasil, there are no space limits -- every (non-ship) miniature on the board can dog-pile there. The one-mini-at-a-time rule is less important for that case, but is still necessary for establishing when to stop the call to arms.

Its important that passing isn't permanent, because if one player already has a clear advantage, they can wait until others commit enough to challenge them before adding more troops. If I have 8 strength and my opponent has 1, why should I be forced to commit until my opponent has added enough troops to make my victory uncertain?

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David Tolin
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I could be wrong, but I'm 98% sure the rulebook itself provides an example of bringing in troops after passing. The FAQ is clear, of course, but I think it's expressly stated in the RAW.
 
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Fernando Robert Yu
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Krushhhhh wrote:
You keep going until everyone has passed and does not want to bring anymore figures into the battle.


In other words if the villages are filled players HAVE to pass...
 
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Barry Miller
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Re: Joining pillage when all figures are already in a provincep

BOTTOM LINE: Everyone has to pass... whether forced to, or by choice, or by not having a choice.

Once everyone says, "I pass" (or to that effect), then the Call to Battle is complete and the Pillage can begin.

 
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Todd Parker
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"Once all villages in that province are occupied, or
when no one else wishes to join in, the battle begins."

In a 4p game...
Several rounds of adding people go by, there is still room...
P1 passes
P2 passes
P3 passes
P4 passes

Player 2 can then say I want to move someone in. And the mess starts up again.
The rule doesn't say "until everyone passes in order" as many people play. It says "when no one else wishes to join"

So the call to battle doesn't end until everyone is content with their troops, regardless of when they might have passed in turn order.
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Matheus Affonso
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Player 2 wouldn't be able to move any more figures. The "in order" part is neither necessary nor relevant. That's because the call to battle is already an ordered phase. You have a chance to say you either do or don't want in only on your "turn". If, when called to battle, you say you don't want to participate, then the next player will be asked, then the next, then the next, so on and so forth. The rule establishes the conditions that define when to stop going around the table:

(1) No more villages left;
(2) Everyone has expressed that they do not wish to join.

So, in your scenario, since P1 has already passed, the last player to have a chance at bringing someone would be P4. If P4 does, then everyone has at least one chance to respond, until it comes back to P4 again. So, if P1, P2 and P3 pass, P4 will be the one to define whether the battle will begin immediately or the call to battle will continue. If he adds one more figure, then everyone will, once again, have a chance to respond, until it comes back to him.

If your example were correct, than the call to battle would not have a clear end. When could you say the call to battle is over? There would be no point in there being an order for the call to battle in Yggdrasil, for example.
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Matheus Affonso
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lfisher wrote:
mdaffonso wrote:
Player 2 wouldn't be able to move any more figures. The "in order" part is neither necessary nor relevant. That's because the call to battle is already an ordered phase. You have a chance to say you either do or don't want in only on your "turn". If, when called to battle, you say you don't want to participate, then the next player will be asked, then the next, then the next, so on and so forth. The rule establishes the conditions that define when to stop going around the table:

(1) No more villages left;
(2) Everyone has expressed that they do not wish to join.

So, in your scenario, since P1 has already passed, the last player to have a chance at bringing someone would be P4. If P4 does, then everyone has at least one chance to respond, until it comes back to P4 again. So, if P1, P2 and P3 pass, P4 will be the one to define whether the battle will begin immediately or the call to battle will continue. If he adds one more figure, then everyone will, once again, have a chance to respond, until it comes back to him.

If your example were correct, than the call to battle would not have a clear end. When could you say the call to battle is over? There would be no point in there being an order for the call to battle in Yggdrasil, for example.


This is false as mentioned above.


False according to whom?
 
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Lee Fisher
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mdaffonso wrote:
lfisher wrote:
mdaffonso wrote:
Player 2 wouldn't be able to move any more figures. The "in order" part is neither necessary nor relevant. That's because the call to battle is already an ordered phase. You have a chance to say you either do or don't want in only on your "turn". If, when called to battle, you say you don't want to participate, then the next player will be asked, then the next, then the next, so on and so forth. The rule establishes the conditions that define when to stop going around the table:

(1) No more villages left;
(2) Everyone has expressed that they do not wish to join.

So, in your scenario, since P1 has already passed, the last player to have a chance at bringing someone would be P4. If P4 does, then everyone has at least one chance to respond, until it comes back to P4 again. So, if P1, P2 and P3 pass, P4 will be the one to define whether the battle will begin immediately or the call to battle will continue. If he adds one more figure, then everyone will, once again, have a chance to respond, until it comes back to him.

If your example were correct, than the call to battle would not have a clear end. When could you say the call to battle is over? There would be no point in there being an order for the call to battle in Yggdrasil, for example.


This is false as mentioned above.


False according to whom?


Sorry I may have misread, that does seem to make sense.
 
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David Tolin
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mdaffonso wrote:
Player 2 wouldn't be able to move any more figures. The "in order" part is neither necessary nor relevant. That's because the call to battle is already an ordered phase. You have a chance to say you either do or don't want in only on your "turn". If, when called to battle, you say you don't want to participate, then the next player will be asked, then the next, then the next, so on and so forth. The rule establishes the conditions that define when to stop going around the table:

(1) No more villages left;
(2) Everyone has expressed that they do not wish to join.


This is not what the rules (or the FAQ) say. The conditions are: 1) All villages are occupied; and 2) No one else wants to join.

"No one else wants to join" is not the same as "everyone has expressed they do not wish to join." If everyone has passed, but a player then decides he/she wants to join, the battle doesn't start and the player is able to join. That's my read of the rules and the clarification in the FAQ, at least.

mdaffonso wrote:
So, in your scenario, since P1 has already passed, the last player to have a chance at bringing someone would be P4. If P4 does, then everyone has at least one chance to respond, until it comes back to P4 again. So, if P1, P2 and P3 pass, P4 will be the one to define whether the battle will begin immediately or the call to battle will continue. If he adds one more figure, then everyone will, once again, have a chance to respond, until it comes back to him.


I don't think the rules or the FAQ support this interpretation.

mdaffonso wrote:
If your example were correct, than the call to battle would not have a clear end. When could you say the call to battle is over?


When no one wants to join anymore. That is a clear end.
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Matheus Affonso
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It seems to me that your interpretation clashes with the first part of the paragraph the rule you are citing comes from:

Quote:
Once you have declared your intent to Pillage that province, the other players have a chance to join the battle. Starting with the player to your left and going around in clockwise order, each player (including you) may, if they wish, move one of their figures from an adjacent province into an empty village in the province you are pillaging. [...] Once all villages in that province are occupied, or when no one else wishes to join in, the battle begins.


If, after everyone has passed, anyone can still join, when do you stop going around in clockwise order and declare the call to battle over? How many full circles are necessary? Do you do P1 > P2 > P3 > P4 > P1 > P2 > P3 > P4 and then declare it over? Or can P1 still say something after that? In the following scenario, what would happen?

4 players. Everyone has 1 warrior in Yggdrasil. Everyone passed. As everyone is about to select cards, P2 says "wait, I'll bring one more", and puts one more warrior in Yggdrasil. Before P1 passes, he asks P2 whether he'll bring any more figures to battle. P2 says "only if you do". P1 passes. P2 passes. Then as everyone is selecting cards, after a short pause, P1 says "OK, I'll bring my leader", and puts his leader figure in Yggdrasil. And so the call to battle continues.

Would that be OK according to your interpretation?

I understand what you are trying to say, but the "no one else wishes to join in" clause has to be tied to the way the ordered system functions. If, following the clockwise order defined by the rule, every player chooses to pass, that means every player has voiced that they do not wish to bring more figures to battle, which would trigger the end of the call.

But I guess we'll not convince each other, and in the end, we'll just have to agree to disagree.
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David Tolin
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mdaffonso wrote:
It seems to me that your interpretation clashes with the first part of the paragraph the rule you are citing comes from:

Quote:
Once you have declared your intent to Pillage that province, the other players have a chance to join the battle. Starting with the player to your left and going around in clockwise order, each player (including you) may, if they wish, move one of their figures from an adjacent province into an empty village in the province you are pillaging. [...] Once all villages in that province are occupied, or when no one else wishes to join in, the battle begins.


If, after everyone has passed, anyone can still join, when do you stop going around in clockwise order and declare the call to battle over? How many full circles are necessary? Do you do P1 > P2 > P3 > P4 > P1 > P2 > P3 > P4 and then declare it over? Or can P1 still say something after that? In the following scenario, what would happen?

4 players. Everyone has 1 warrior in Yggdrasil. Everyone passed. As everyone is about to select cards, P2 says "wait, I'll bring one more", and puts one more warrior in Yggdrasil. Before P1 passes, he asks P2 whether he'll bring any more figures to battle. P2 says "only if you do". P1 passes. P2 passes. Then as everyone is selecting cards, after a short pause, P1 says "OK, I'll bring my leader", and puts his leader figure in Yggdrasil. And so the call to battle continues.

Would that be OK according to your interpretation?


I still think joining/passing needs to take place in turn order (especially for non-Yggdrasil provinces). Otherwise, yes. I don't see any issue with that scenario. In reality, though, I don't see it happening. Generally, once everyone has passed in a row, no one wants to add any more units, and the battle starts.

mdaffonso wrote:
If, following the clockwise order defined by the rule, every player chooses to pass, that means every player has voiced that they do not wish to bring more figures to battle, which would trigger the end of the call.


The FAQ clarification is very clear, though: "Players can always bring units into a battle, until nobody else wants to." (emphasis mine)

If there were a hard limit (such as "once everyone passes in a row"), the rules and the FAQ would have said that. I agree that "everyone passes in a row" is a good indication that no one else wants to join. I just don't agree that it means no one can join.

Edit: This is a very important distinction, in my mind. Putting a hard limit on the call to battle produces a very different result than leaving it open until absolutely no one wants to join. Passing your turn is a good way to see what other people are going to bring to the battle. With a hard stop like you're suggesting, Player 4 can safely pass, see what everyone else brings, then decide whether to continue adding (as can Players 2 and 3, actually). Player 1 cannot safely take that chance, putting Player 1 at a disadvantage.

This is the way it works in some games, and in those games that risk is inherent in the process. But I don't think this is the way it's supposed to work in Blood Rage, and I don't think the rules (or especially the FAQ) indicate it works that way. As you say, though, we can agree to disagree.
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Matheus Affonso
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I agree that both scenarios are absolutely distinct, but the example of your edit does not convey rightly what we are discussing here.

You said:

Quote:
With a hard stop like you're suggesting, Player 4 can safely pass, see what everyone else brings, then decide whether to continue adding (as can Players 2 and 3, actually). Player 1 cannot safely take that chance, as there is the possibility everyone else will pass, too, preventing Player 1 from adding any more units.


That is not what my interpretation implies. It implies that passing is always risky, if you want to add more figures to the battle. If P4 passes, then everybody else does also, P4 will not have another go. The following scenario would correctly reflect my interpretation:

P2 - Starts pillage
P3 - Adds figure
P4 - PASSES
P1 - PASSES
P2 - Adds figure
P3 - PASSES
P4 - PASSES
P1 - Adds figure
P2 - Adds figure
P3 - Adds figure
P4 - PASSES
P1 - PASSES
P2 - PASSES
P3 - PASSES
Call to battle ends

If P1 added a figure, then it would go around in clockwise order again and P2, P3, P4 and finally P1 would have a chance to either add more figures or pass. The last player who added a figure will always be the last to pass, which means you will always have a chance to react to other players' reinforcements.

So, passing is risky, because if you do, and everybody else does too, the battle begins.

Finally, I believe the FAQ entry should be read taking into consideration the question actually asked, which is whether or not you are allowed to come back to the call to battle after you have passed in a previous round.

Anyway, it would be great to have an official ruling, since this is a topic with very diverse opinions and interpretations.
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David Tolin
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mdaffonso wrote:
I agree that both scenarios are absolutely distinct, but the example of your edit does not convey rightly what we are discussing here.

You said:

Quote:
With a hard stop like you're suggesting, Player 4 can safely pass, see what everyone else brings, then decide whether to continue adding (as can Players 2 and 3, actually). Player 1 cannot safely take that chance, as there is the possibility everyone else will pass, too, preventing Player 1 from adding any more units.


That is not what my interpretation implies. It implies that passing is always risky, if you want to add more figures to the battle. If P4 passes, then everybody else does also, P4 will not have another go. The following scenario would correctly reflect my interpretation:

P2 - Starts pillage
P3 - Adds figure
P4 - PASSES
P1 - PASSES
P2 - Adds figure
P3 - PASSES
P4 - PASSES
P1 - Adds figure
P2 - Adds figure
P3 - Adds figure
P4 - PASSES
P1 - PASSES
P2 - PASSES
P3 - PASSES
Call to battle ends

If P1 added a figure, then it would go around in clockwise order again and P2, P3, P4 and finally P1 would have a chance to either add more figures or pass. The last player who added a figure will always be the last to pass, which means you will always have a chance to react to other players' reinforcements.



I like that better, but we're still at an impasse. I, too, would be interested to see an official ruling.
 
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Barry Miller
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DavidT wrote:
I like that better, but we're still at an impasse. I, too, would be interested to see an official ruling.

There's an older thread that discussed this same topic. Here's a reply from Thiago that might be what you're looking for?

Here:
Re: Call to Battle

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David Tolin
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bgm1961 wrote:

DavidT wrote:
I like that better, but we're still at an impasse. I, too, would be interested to see an official ruling.

There's an older thread that discussed this same topic. Here's a reply from Thiago that might be what you're looking for?

Here:
Re: Call to Battle



Thanks, but I don't think that gets us any further than we are in this thread. In the end, it doesn't much matter, I can't imagine this will ever come up in a game I'm playing.
 
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Barry Miller
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Yeah, but you asked for an official ruling and there it is. And as it`s clear in what it says, I'm not sure what more is needed to make it any clearer or complete. And I'm one who usually cries for more clarity in rules!

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Matheus Affonso
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bgm1961 wrote:

Yeah, but you asked for an official ruling and there it is. And as it`s clear in what it says, I'm not sure what more is needed to make it any clearer or complete. And I'm one who usually cries for more clarity in rules!


I'm sorry, but the topic you linked to does not provide anything close to an official ruling to what's being discussed here. The question asked in that topic is the exact same question from the FAQ, which has nothing to do with how the procedure for the call to battle is resolved.

So, when Thiago says "you can pass at first, but then when your turn comes around again you can decide to bring a viking in", the only thing that can be answered by that is that P1 PASS > P2 IN > P3 PASS > P4 PASS > P1 IN, for example, is legal, which, I believe, is already established. It does nothing to clarify whether P1 PASS > P2 PASS > P3 PASS > P4 PASS > P1 IN is legal or not. In other words, it doesn't say anything about whether the call to battle ends immediately once every player has passed consecutively or not, which is really what's being discussed here.

This is a relevant issue, because of situations such as the following:

P1 has a warrior and his leader in Yggdrasil and starts a pillage. P2 thinks there will be a huge fight over Yggdrasil, which he won't likely win, because P3 has much more STR combined in other provinces and a +5 battle card, with which he lost a previous combat, so he decides to assess the situation before committing, and passes on his first chance to bring a warrior in. Contrary to what P2 believes, P3 has no interest in Yggdrasil and passes. P4 also passes. Since P1 started pillaging, and everyone already passed, he could still either bring someone else or pass.

In this situation, if P1 passes, either the call to battle ends immediately, because every player, in turn order, has explicitly declared he does not wish to bring any more forces in (my interpretation), or P2 may still decide he wants to take part in the battle and bring a figure in (David's interpretation). So, either passing has an inherent risk to it, or it doesn't.

Another situation in which it would matter:

P3 has his leader in a 5-village outer province and starts a pillage. P4 and P1 each bring a warrior in, and P2 brings his leader in. Now there's only one more spot left. Everyone passes. As everyone is about to select their cards, P2 says: "Wait a minute. I think I wanna guarantee this one.", and picks his Fire Giant up, to which P1 replies: "Well, since I would go before you in call order, I will bring in a warrior before you do.", which would fill the province up and prevent P2 from adding his Fire Giant to the battle.

Could they do that? Who would have precedence? The one who speaks first? Since you're not asking around anymore, does the fact that the call to battle is an ordered phase matter after everyone has passed once? In my interpretation, neither P1 nor P2 could do that, because the call was already over once everyone passed. In David's interpretation, though, one of them could do it, I just wouldn't know who.
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mdaffonso wrote:
[q="bgm1961"]


It does nothing to clarify whether P1 PASS > P2 PASS > P3 PASS > P4 PASS > P1 IN is legal or not. In other words, it doesn't say anything about whether the call to battle ends immediately once every player has passed consecutively or not, which is really what's being discussed here.



I think it does clarify... In your example you say P1 is the first player who decides to pass. Therefore, if P1 is the first player deciding on passing or not, it implies P4 started the pillage (Other players can join, starting with the player to your left...).

So if P1, P2, P3 and finally if P4 (who started the pillage) all pass, the battle begins as all players have decided not to join by passing - there's no further chance for P1 to subsequently add as the battle has already begun.
 
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