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Subject: Stun (Ambush question) rss

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Victor Lesperance
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I'm wondering if the "Stunned Hunter" section of the rulebook is 100% correct.

I only see 2 causes of stun in the game. Power fists seems to work intuitively because it happens on the agent's turn - so the hunters are stunned for exactly one full turn.

Cobra's ambush, however, does not make sense. You place the token at the end of a Hunter's movement... then remove it at the end of his turn (ie, immediately!). So, all it did was deny special abilities and the attack. Yet, there's no special abilities that make any sense if you're next to cobra and Ambush adds the text "hunter cannot attack" which should be a given anyway... Technically, Ambush could be simplified to "Hunter cannot attack this round," removing all reference to Stun which has no discernable game effect anyway and avoids confusion.

I *think* the intent is that the hunter is stunned for the entire following round PLUS can't attack this round. An implication of this assumption is that technically the Hunter is also denied attacks on 2 rounds in a row.

This... oddness... will come up any time the stun token is placed during a Hunter's turn. I see 2 possibilities to correct it (if indeed this is an error at all):

Rules change for Stun effects:
"Remove the stun marker at the end of the Hunter's NEXT movement."
-OR-
"Remove the stun marker at the end of the Hunter's NEXT turn."

-OR-

Change Ambush

Simply: "...stun Hunter..."

-OR-

Simply: "...Hunter cannot attack this round..."

(barring expansions, both are functionally equivalent at this juncture)
 
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Victor Lesperance
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BTW, I'm teaching this game at a con this weekend, so any opinions before then are appreciated.
 
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Peter Hazlewood
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vlesperance wrote:
I'm wondering if the "Stunned Hunter" section of the rulebook is 100% correct.

I only see 2 causes of stun in the game. Power fists seems to work intuitively because it happens on the agent's turn - so the hunters are stunned for exactly one full turn.

Cobra's ambush, however, does not make sense. You place the token at the end of a Hunter's movement... then remove it at the end of his turn (ie, immediately!). So, all it did was deny special abilities and the attack. Yet, there's no special abilities that make any sense if you're next to cobra and Ambush adds the text "hunter cannot attack" which should be a given anyway... Technically, Ambush could be simplified to "Hunter cannot attack this round," removing all reference to Stun which has no discernable game effect anyway and avoids confusion.

I *think* the intent is that the hunter is stunned for the entire following round PLUS can't attack this round. An implication of this assumption is that technically the Hunter is also denied attacks on 2 rounds in a row.

This... oddness... will come up any time the stun token is placed during a Hunter's turn. I see 2 possibilities to correct it (if indeed this is an error at all):

Rules change for Stun effects:
"Remove the stun marker at the end of the Hunter's NEXT movement."
-OR-
"Remove the stun marker at the end of the Hunter's NEXT turn."

-OR-

Change Ambush

Simply: "...stun Hunter..."

-OR-

Simply: "...Hunter cannot attack this round..."

(barring expansions, both are functionally equivalent at this juncture)


Hi Victor,

I agree that the wording is a little iffy. As far as I'm concerned, if Cobra stunned an attacking Hunter who's just moved the effect means that the hunter cannot attack and can't use any special ability e.g. The Gun would not be able to setup for Sniper Shot or the The Beast can't use Brutal Strength to batter the Agent who was just found. So he's stunned now, cannot attack or use a special ability until the end of his next turn, not movement. That's a distinction worth making. In effect they're stunned for a turn and a bit.

Is that a bit clearer for you?
 
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Greece
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There's definitely no need to change the Stun rule or Cobra's ability wording, even if in Cobra's case only a few side effects from stunning actually matter.

Stunning the Hunter from the end of his movement till the end of his turn mainly prevents him from attacking. That is quite strong and it would be overly strong if it extended to another round as well.

It's true that even if the hunter cannot use any abilities after his movement ends and Cobra stuns him, there are almost no abilities that make sense to be used anyway; however that might change in a future expansion.

I can think of two quick, extreme examples where Hunters getting stunned next to Cobra would be prevented from using abilities that they planned to use:

- In a 5-player game, Beast moving three spaces ending next to Cobra then sniffing to get a hint about the other Agent's location.

- Cobra can voluntarily end his turn next to a Hunter that is in a corridor corner, tempting him to either stay there and risk getting stunned or move back and end diagonally or further away from Cobra. That might prevent Puppet from moving the car, or Prophet using Post-congition on the second agent in a 5-player game(as I said, extreme examples cool).
 
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Victor Lesperance
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Question: What is the intent of saying that Ambush both stuns and prevents the hunter from attacking this round? The latter is included in the former. Though, I believe the rule book may have been updated. Maybe the extra wording is just an artifact?

Usually, I get through game arguments by exactly, literally applying a rule as written. In this case, I got a bit tripped up when the player asked, "if that's what they meant, why the extra clauses that imply there's more going on than the obvious..."

More opinions (or one official one) welcome!
 
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Greece
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Yeah as the rules stand now, it's not needed. The "cannot attack" part is probably reminder text or maybe the stun rule was different during the development of the game and that clause was needed back then, then remained till the end.
 
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Shoosh shoo
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This came up last night when I was playing as Cobra. We assumed that the stun effect didn't carry over to the next turn as well. If he the hunter landed on an adjacent space (and he did a few times), we played it that Cobra immediately rolled the dice to see if the hunter was stunned. In one case he was stunned, so we just ended that hunter's turn completely, but we didn't carry over the stun effect till the hunter's NEXT turn.

I almost think it would have been better to call the ability "Ninja Vanish" or something else a little more cool-sounding and I would have explained it as the hunter approaching Cobra, they get into a little fight and Cobra uses some ninja trick to disappear or avoid being hit.


This should go without saying but if the hunters land on Cobra's space they immediately get stunned and their automatic hit on Cobra (that normally happens when a hunter lands on an agent's space) is voided, correct? If that's the case then what is the strategy to defeating Cobra? I was in a game last night where Cobra was running from the Beast and the Prophet. The hunters thought that the Beast was very hindered against Cobra because landing either on or adjacent to Cobra was very risky. Are the hunters just supposed to keep some distance and just get line of sight and shoot at him?
 
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