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Subject: New Support Rule? rss

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Joshua Kocur
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I'm just checking to see if I'm understanding the way support works now with the expansion. Anyone who receives a support token after the mission is over gets to reactivate their good luck charm and discard one hard knocks, and if someone receives more support then everyone else they can discard up to two hard knocks?
 
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Paul Bach
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I believe that if the mission is successful the grizzled who gains the most support can discard two hard knocks as well as regain their good luck charm. If the mission is a failure, then the grizzled who gains the most support can discard one hard knocks and regain their good luck charm. The good luck charm is always regained. The number of hard knocks discarded is dependent on the mission's success.
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Roger Edwards
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I came in here with the same question, but on reflection my thoughts are:

The rule does not mention the Mission at all. It states, "successful Support", "failed Support". Remember, in the base game Support is independent of Mission success or failure. It also states that, "Support always reactivates the Good Luck Charms" [emphasis mine.]

The latter statement supports the rule as written, even though it seems overly generous. I've only played this once so far, but we did end up with a lot more cards in our hands, which suggests that the generosity of support is designed to mitigate that. It enables more cards to be put out on a single mission as more can be discarded with Lucky Charms, safe in the knowledge that you are likely to get your Charm back for the next mission.

This is a good case where an example in the rulebook would have helped. I'd still like confirmation though.
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Steve G.
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cloud64 wrote:
I came in here with the same question, but on reflection my thoughts are:

The rule does not mention the Mission at all. It states, "successful Support", "failed Support". Remember, in the base game Support is independent of Mission success or failure. It also states that, "Support always reactivates the Good Luck Charms" [emphasis mine.]

The latter statement supports the rule as written, even though it seems overly generous. I've only played this once so far, but we did end up with a lot more cards in our hands, which suggests that the generosity of support is designed to mitigate that. It enables more cards to be put out on a single mission as more can be discarded with Lucky Charms, safe in the knowledge that you are likely to get your Charm back for the next mission.

This is a good case where an example in the rulebook would have helped. I'd still like confirmation though.

Yes, I'm unclear on what constitutes "failed" support.
 
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Michael Norrish
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steveg700 wrote:
cloud64 wrote:
I came in here with the same question, but on reflection my thoughts are:

The rule does not mention the Mission at all. It states, "successful Support", "failed Support". Remember, in the base game Support is independent of Mission success or failure. It also states that, "Support always reactivates the Good Luck Charms" [emphasis mine.]

The latter statement supports the rule as written, even though it seems overly generous. I've only played this once so far, but we did end up with a lot more cards in our hands, which suggests that the generosity of support is designed to mitigate that. It enables more cards to be put out on a single mission as more can be discarded with Lucky Charms, safe in the knowledge that you are likely to get your Charm back for the next mission.

This is a good case where an example in the rulebook would have helped. I'd still like confirmation though.

Yes, I'm unclear on what constitutes "failed" support.


Yeah, I have the same questions.
 
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Richard Ham
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wow, nobody knows the answer to this? this is what I was wondering after reading the rules, which are incredibly vague on this topic.

has anyone read the original french rules where maybe it's made a bit more definitive?
 
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Kris Van Beurden
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As far as I understand this:

Successful support = one player received more support than any other player.

So, in a 4 player game, if two players each receive 2 support, nobody is succsfully supported and nothing happens/.


OTOH, if one player received 2 support and nobody else received 2 support, that player gets to remove 2 hard knocks and reactivates his lucky charm.
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Paulo Renato
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Tegarend wrote:
As far as I understand this:

Successful support = one player received more support than any other player.

So, in a 4 player game, if two players each receive 2 support, nobody is succsfully supported and nothing happens/.


OTOH, if one player received 2 support and nobody else received 2 support, that player gets to remove 2 hard knocks and reactivates his lucky charm.


This is it... its the exact same thing as it was in the original game, but now you get to reactivate the Good Luck Charm
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Richard Ham
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Tegarend wrote:
As far as I understand this:

Successful support = one player received more support than any other player.

So, in a 4 player game, if two players each receive 2 support, nobody is succsfully supported and nothing happens/.


OTOH, if one player received 2 support and nobody else received 2 support, that player gets to remove 2 hard knocks and reactivates his lucky charm.

See, that's what I would expect, and (not having played) that feels right, but that's *not* how the rules are written, which seem to state very clearly that the OP's interpretation is correct, even though that feels very wrong.

Have the designers/publishers spoken up on this at all? I suspect it's a bad translation, and what the english rules should say is

"In case of a successful MISSION, the player may discard 2 hard knocks and reactive the good luck charm.

in case of a failed MISSION, the player may discard 1 hard knock card and reactivate the good luck charm"

The rules currently say "in case of a successful/failed support" which makes no sense, and has to be interpreted Joshua's way, IMO. But again, I'm betting bad translation, hence I was wondering if anyone's seen the original french rules?
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Kris Van Beurden
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rahdo wrote:
Tegarend wrote:
As far as I understand this:

Successful support = one player received more support than any other player.

So, in a 4 player game, if two players each receive 2 support, nobody is succsfully supported and nothing happens/.


OTOH, if one player received 2 support and nobody else received 2 support, that player gets to remove 2 hard knocks and reactivates his lucky charm.

See, that's what I would expect, and (not having played) that feels right, but that's *not* how the rules are written, which seem to state very clearly that the OP's interpretation is correct, even though that feels very wrong.

Have the designers/publishers spoken up on this at all? I suspect it's a bad translation, and what the english rules should say is

"In case of a successful MISSION, the player may discard 2 hard knocks and reactive the good luck charm.

in case of a failed MISSION, the player may discard 1 hard knock card and reactivate the good luck charm"

The rules currently say "in case of a successful/failed support" which makes no sense, and has to be interpreted Joshua's way, IMO. But again, I'm betting bad translation, hence I was wondering if anyone's seen the original french rules?


Yes.

That's what my interpretation comes from.
 
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Steve G.
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Franklin1742 wrote:
I don't see why this is quite so confusing. The purpose of the Support section in the rulebook for the expansion is simply to add the rule that – if a character has earned support – their Good Luck Charm may now always be restored. They could have stated that and simply left it there.

It's confusing because the rules didn't simply leave it there. Instead, they refer to successful support and failed support, not to the effects of successful support in the context of successful or failed missions.

If the intent of the rule is to at least improve the illusion of having a chance, then players might well hope that the effect of failed support isn't as devastating and there's some beneficiary in the event that nobody gets a majority.
 
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Richard Ham
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Franklin1742 wrote:
It's mild confusion at worst,

I'm putting on my disagree face! shake

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which was my point. It lasts about two seconds. What else could they mean?

It could mean what the OP suggested, and what i assumed reading as well, even though it seems very wrong. Going by how the rules are written, that's really the only valid way to interpret the notion of "failed support" (a concept that doesn't exist in the base game, and was created by these rules with no explanation).
 
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Kris Van Beurden
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rahdo wrote:

It could mean what the OP suggested, and what i assumed reading as well, even though it seems very wrong. Going by how the rules are written, that's really the only valid way to interpret the notion of "failed support" (a concept that doesn't exist in the base game, and was created by these rules with no explanation).


Surely there was already a notion of failed support in the base game without it being fully written out in the base game rules ...
 
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Richard Ham
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Tegarend wrote:
rahdo wrote:

It could mean what the OP suggested, and what i assumed reading as well, even though it seems very wrong. Going by how the rules are written, that's really the only valid way to interpret the notion of "failed support" (a concept that doesn't exist in the base game, and was created by these rules with no explanation).


Surely there was already a notion of failed support in the base game without it being fully written out in the base game rules ...

Yes, there's the implication (not defintion) of failed support in the base game, which is when someone attempts to support someone else, but it fails due to minority. As in, I try to support you, but the rest of the group supports bob, so he gets the successful support, and you received a failed support, as in "my support for you failed".

Of course, there's no gameplay effect for failed support in the base game, so it's immaterial that this was only implied and not stated. But now, in the expansion, there's a rule about what happens in the case of "failed support", but no clear definition of what failed support is. So you have to go back to the base rules, which imply what failed support is, and you're left with the OP's guess as to what the rules mean, which as yet no one from the publishing of this game has offered clarity on. We're all just taking educated guesses here, because of poor wording (or more likely, mistaken translation) in the english rules.

It's a real shame that no one seems to have access to the french rules so this can be double checked. Equally unfortunate that no one from the publisher (or the designers) have weighed in. I have sent emails to both, fingers crossed they're reply (especially on my even bigger question for the duo mode, where the rules are even more vague).
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Richard Ham
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Franklin1742 wrote:
I don't suggest that the rulebook is perfect. It is clumsily phrased in places but not, I feel, fatally so. This expansion's Support rule has, effectively, compressed the phrase "support for a failed mission" into the shorthand phrase "failed support".

That is your interpretation of what it has done, but one should not have to interpret rules. Granted, I'd bet your interpretation is correct, but we're both hypothesizing here in the absence of consistent terminology. If that weren't the case, this thread would never have been created in the first place, and 5 gamers in this thread wouldn't have had to ask the question.

Quote:
Of course they should have spelled it out, but I can't feel that this offers sufficient encouragement for constructing a new definition and a new rule.

You'll note I brought out my disagreement face earlier... no reason to repeat it, though it does still stand. Considering the expansion rules are full of examples where the original rules are fundamentally overridden by new alternates, it's not unreasonable to expect the same thing happened to support.

Quote:
Surely any definition concerning successful or failed support, as such, springs from the paragraph on page 8 of the base game's rulebook beginning "If the mission was a failure"? In this paragraph the principle is established that the character who receives the greatest support from his comrades, on a mission that failed, may only discard a single Hard Knock card, and the Restore Lucky Charm option is not available. The distinction is made clear between the effect of support for missions that succeed and support for missions that fail.

Yes, that principal is established in the core rules. It is however seemingly abandoned in the expansion rules with the introduction of a new term that overrides the rules present in the the core game.

Quote:
Those who take a different meaning are, I suspect, treating the playing of the tile as the support, and the fact that this may have no effect (no majority) as the failure.

Correct... my argument is that there is literally no other reasonable way to parse the new gameplay concept of "support failure" besides "a support tile played for the purpose of support, which fails to achieve that purpose."

Quote:
But this is not implied by the core rules (the phrase used is "Support given to the x Player..."). Your tile is played, your support (such as it is) is always given, but there wasn't enough of it going in one direction and nobody benefited. And, even in those cases where there was enough support to benefit one man, if the mission failed he feels that support less positively.

Indeed, that's why there's a problem with these expansion rules... because they add a fundamentally new concept ("support failure") to the rules that contradicts functionality introduced in the base game ("mission failure").

Of course, it's likely a typo, but it's a pretty bad typo, IMO...
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Mike DiLisio
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This is a fundamentally poor rule book in my opinion. I thought the base game's rule book was less than stellar, but this is exponentially worse. This is a game that is hard to win, but shouldn't be hard to play. It's not a complicated rule set, but you wouldn't know it by a reading of the rules. I suspect, as do many others, that it's primarily a result of poor translation, but for a game with this high of a profile, and the resources of CMoN, I'm frankly surprised that these rule books passed muster.
 
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Kris Van Beurden
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rahdo wrote:

It's a real shame that no one seems to have access to the french rules so this can be double checked. Equally unfortunate that no one from the publisher (or the designers) have weighed in. I have sent emails to both, fingers crossed they're reply (especially on my even bigger question for the duo mode, where the rules are even more vague).


I stated above (maybe not clearly enough) that I have access to the french rules and that the french rules are my source for my interpretation.
 
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Richard Ham
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Tegarend wrote:
rahdo wrote:

It's a real shame that no one seems to have access to the french rules so this can be double checked. Equally unfortunate that no one from the publisher (or the designers) have weighed in. I have sent emails to both, fingers crossed they're reply (especially on my even bigger question for the duo mode, where the rules are even more vague).


I stated above (maybe not clearly enough) that I have access to the french rules and that the french rules are my source for my interpretation.

Oh, awesome! Could you swing by [this thread] and say whether the french rules help provide more clarity on the Duo question?
 
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Scott Nelson
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This was the only question we had, so I wouldn't call it a bad rule book. The example in the box I'm guessing does correspond to a failed support versus successful support, so it appears that the mission success or failure is what does in fact constitute the success or failure of support as well. We wanted to find some other way to break ties further for support but it was not to be...sooo, we lost the good fight again...by 1 card.
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Jason Boyd
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I was asking Richard (Rahdo) if he had heard anything authoritative from 'the powers that be' about this new support rule.

Here's what he got:

-Failed support: this occurs when the mission failed. Then, if some players already played their support tile, there is a "reduced support" (cf "Support : If the mission was a failure" if the Grizzled Rulebook). In this case, and if no tie, the player with majority of supports receives the reward of -1 hard knock and can refresh Luck Charm.

- If there if a tie in support tiles : there is no reward at all!

So, it looks like it was all down to bad wording in the rules. Here's hoping they make some changes to it in a future printing.
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Richard Ham
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Thanks Jason and apologies to everyone else for totally forgetting to post the response I got from CMON... very embarrassed! blush
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Jason Boyd
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rahdo wrote:
Thanks Jason and apologies to everyone else for totally forgetting to post the response I got from CMON... very embarrassed! blush


Don't worry Richard, we know you've been busy doing the odd runthrough now and again.
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