Frank Clarke
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If your Sherman meets a 88L, and you wish to flee, you get a +3 DRM on your hesitation roll. So VHV = (9 - 3). You have to throw less than a 9 - 3 = 6 to pass hesitation, so you have a 27.77% chance of hesitating.
A 37L would give you have a VHV of about 2, so you automatically pass hesitation.

Does this even begin to make sense to anyone? I can't see any need for vehicle hesitation on fleeing, and I don't see why a bigger enemy gun makes it harder to flee.

I would make all fleeing AFVs automatically pass hesitation. Am I missing something?
 
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Uel McAdorey
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I could be way off base, but doesn't this make it tougher to duck out of LOS of the 88 than the 37? If so, you're likely to be killed next turn by the 88. Thus it abstractly represents the fact that if you enter the LOS of an 88 you're much less likely to survive to get back to cover. Does that make sense?
 
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Frank Clarke
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A virtual Advancing Fire Phase? The 88L Tiger gets a shot off on the move, simulated by freezing the Sherman in position until the next turn. The 37L SdKfz 250/10 halftrack also gets a shot off, but harmlessly.
It is plausible. Good point, I'll think about that.

It just makes life harder for the Shermans and T-34s vs German heavy armor. Less chance of maneuvering around the rear of the JagdPanther. The JagdPanther freezes every AFV it can see in place like the Medusa until the next turn and picks them off one at a time.
 
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Frank Clarke
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My issue with Fleeing DRM is this:

A Hetzer won't hesitate to move towards a Cromwell IV 75mm (Diff=0). The Cromwell (Diff=10) needs a 10 or more (16.66%) to try to move behind the Hetzer. And the Hetzer will just pivot to face the Cromwell.

You can flee the Cromwell with a need to roll a 6 or more (71.2%). But every time you retreat, the Hetzer follows, so eventually you will hesitate and die unless your superior speed gets you far enough away, or something intervenes. The Cromwell has a Diff=11 against the side/rear of the Hetzer, but little chance of ever seeing the side armor.

There is no clever thing the Cromwell can do to outflank the Hetzer, all it can do is try to run away. If you have 12 Cromwells versus 1 Hetzer, 2 of them will pass hesitation each turn and move to the Hetzer's left and right flank. The Hetzer still has a good chance of moving to a safe position.

If turretless AFVs only caused hesitation in their Covered Arc, and turreted AFVS only in their Covered and Side Arcs, all sorts of exciting maneuver would be possible. But that would be for the Variant forum.
 
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Mochara C
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Quote:
If turretless AFVs only caused hesitation in their Covered Arc, and turreted AFVS only in their Covered and Side Arcs, all sorts of exciting maneuver would be possible. But that would be for the Variant forum.


Well then make it so.
Retro IS a variant and layering in as much or as little "extra stuff" as you see fit is encouraged. Bend it to suit your needs.
 
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Frank Clarke
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moly19 wrote:
Bend it to suit your needs.


Squad Leader 56.3 "Fire from a bunker may be traced only through the covered arc". So, it would be silly to say that the bunker can cause SMC/MMC hesitation if the target is safely at the rear of the bunker.
So I could argue that a stationary STGIII is like a bunker, causing hesitation only in its covered arc. I can call that interpreting the rules sensibly, rather than making up a houserule.

But, to continue with my complaining :
Let's say the Hetzer is facing a British stack of infantry and the Cromwell IV.

The infantry and Cromwell charge at the Hetzer.

The infantry have a 1 in 6 chance of hesitating, the Cromwell has a 1 in 6 (2D6 10,11,12 = 16.66%) chance of not hesitating. The Cromwell is 36 times more likely to hesitate than the infantry. I don't think this is a clever game mechanic, I think it is a mistake.

If the Infantry and Cromwell run in the opposite direction, the Infantry have an 5/6 (83.3%) chance of not hesitating, the Cromwell a 71.2%. Much the same.

I could have a house rule that divides (Gun Factor - Armor Factor) by 2 to reduce AFV hesitation.
However, I can live with the existing rules if the Cromwell can retreat behind a building this turn, and face the side of the Hetzer with no hesitation next turn, using the Bunker interpretation above.
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Frank Clarke
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I was wrong to critize the Retro rules as written.
My problem was with the rules that aren't there, so you have to fill in the gaps with the original ruleset. Retro tanks cannot rotate their turrets, so they are Squad Leader tanks with ASL Armor values. You need Covered Arc and pivoting rules, that work with Retro.

COVERED ARC AND HESITATION.

SMC/MMC hesitation does not mention LOS. So we apply common sense and require LOS for SMC/MMC hesitation, since if you can't fire at the target you can't cause hesitation.
Squad Leader AT guns (48.7), Bunkers (56.3) and Tanks (33.1) can fire in their covered arc only . Using the same common sense, Retro guns and tanks only cause hesitation in their front arc, and LOS is required.
So our Retro rule is:
"Units with a covered arc (including Ordnance, Bunkers and AFVs) can cause Hesitation in their covered arc only ."

So we have to have pivoting rules.

PIVOTING.

Retro says "A vehicle may only fire its gun and/or MG if it has not moved, and has not failed a hesitation roll, that turn". Retro does not mention pivoting.
My Retro rule is "Pivoting is not moving. You may pivot AFVs and Guns at no movement cost, during the movement phase only."
Squad Leader has "Tank firing during Advancing Fire Phase after pivoting within hex during Movement Phase +1 DRM".
Squad Leader has "SPG or gun firing during Advancing Fire Phase after pivoting within hex during Movement Phase +3 DRM".
So, the Retro rules:
"Turreted AFV Firing during Fire Phase after pivoting within hex during Movement Phase +1 Column shifts right on Armor Combat Table."
"Non-Turreted AFV or Gun Firing during Fire Phase after pivoting within hex during Movement Phase +3 Column shifts right on Armor Combat Table."


Comment: If 2 Cromwells are hiding behind terrain features from a Hetzer, and Cromwell #1 passes its hesitation check, it can move into the Hetzer's covered arc. Cromwell #2 can probably maneuver into the Hetzer's side arc with no Hesitation check by use of cover.
The Hezter can shoot at Cromwell #1, or pivot to shoot at Cromwell #2 with a 3 column shift disadvantage, the surviving Cromwell will shoot into the Hetzer's rear armor later on. The Hetzer may Flee to a safer position instead of firing. But it has a 1/6 chance of Hesitation (since Cromwell #2 is facing its side armor) and getting shot in the weak side armor.
If the Cromwells get within 3 hexes, the Hetzer can defensive fire to its frontal arc.
If a German heavy AFV places itself carefully, the Allied Armor will have heavy losses if they try to charge it frontally. But you can cleverly outmaneuver it if it gets close and you have a good tank leader.
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Charles
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Wonderful post. I can visualize the situation very distinctly. And it makes sense!
 
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