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Subject: Any Euros without VPs? rss

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Enon Sci
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Well, perhaps not entirely without them - but are there any Euro-esque games that have victory conditions akin to chess (i.e. where final configurations of components determines victory and not an arbitrary point or turn number)?

I'm not looking for abstracts. It would be cool to find something like Caylus (as a random example) which broke the VP mold.


Anybody else see VPs becoming a cliche?
 
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Olivier Lamontagne
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Dragon Delta or Mr. Jack does not have VP, I don't know if they are ¨euros¨.

Liberté haves VPs, but the games haves sudden death condition that ignores VP.
 
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Eugene Tackleberry
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All also do not have a point scoring method.
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John Paul Sodusta
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Do you count Antiquity as a Euro? Then this is a very good candidate. No where in the game/rule book that points are mentioned.
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pronoblem baalberith
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MWChapel wrote:


Well, if that counts so does T&E?

I think that neither do... as both are VPs of sort, he's looking for something like an abstract where position on the board is determinate. I am thinking some pure area control came where points are not awarded would be the answer.
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That's a tricky question. Take a game like Maharaja: Palace Building in India. That game ends as soon as a player manages to build their 7th(?) palace and that person is the winner. Even though the game rules make no mention of VPs you could say that a Palace is worth 1 VP and the first to 7 VPs wins. Also Gloria Mundi makes no reference to VPs in the game rules, however people have refered to the steps to Africa as VPs.

Even in Chess you can say You get 100 points for getting your opponents King in check mate, first person to 100 wins!

I can't think of a game where VPs can't be assigned to the game winning condition.

Where do you draw the line between a game with VPs and a game without.
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Darrell Hanning
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Nearly impossible to answer this question correctly, without first resolving these questions:

1) Which games are Euros?
2) Can games that do not use the term "Victory Points" still be accused of using the idea of Victory Points?

What I consider a Euro is not necessarily always going to be what someone else considers a Euro, and the very reason they do not consider it a Euro may be due to the fact that it doesn't use a Victory Point concept.
 
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Dave Eisen
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Maharaja was the first that came to mind, but sure, you can turn nearly anything you want into VP. Chess could be such saying you get 1 VP when you capture the opponent's king.

Hare and Tortoise and other race games are a possibility.
 
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MSV Burns
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Battle Line?

Is it a euro? (It's Knizia, no?)

There's no score and two different winning 'configurations'... Chess with a one-dimensional board and pieces that consist of poker hands that you build as you play? With the occasional odd modifying card?
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Saying VPs are becoming "cliche," though, is pretty odd... that's like saying that profit margins in business are becoming "cliche." Points are just how you generally measure success in a typical game. Sure, there are other ways to "win" a game, but the standard method (for video games, board games, game shows, sports, etc) is points.
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Pretty much any racing game, Formula Dé comes to mind.
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Greg Jones
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rayito2702 wrote:
That's a tricky question. Take a game like Maharaja: Palace Building in India. That game ends as soon as a player manages to build their 7th(?) palace and that person is the winner. Even though the game rules make no mention of VPs you could say that a Palace is worth 1 VP and the first to 7 VPs wins. Also Gloria Mundi makes no reference to VPs in the game rules, however people have refered to the steps to Africa as VPs.

Even in Chess you can say You get 100 points for getting your opponents King in check mate, first person to 100 wins!

I can't think of a game where VPs can't be assigned to the game winning condition.

Where do you draw the line between a game with VPs and a game without.


In your chess example, there is only one amount of VPs ever given, that amount can only be gotten once, and that amount is enough to win the game. In that case using a concept of VPs is unnecessary. We can at least draw the line to leave chess out.

The Maharaja example doesn't match all those criteria (the 1 VP for a palace can be gotten more than once), but VPs are still unnecessary to describe the victory condition. VPs become necessary when there are multiple objectives that award them in different amounts.

In Attika you could say that you need 30 VPs to win, each building gives you 1 VP, and connecting the shrines gives you 30 VP. Those are different amounts. However, we can obviously leave any such instant win objectives out of the VP system. That leaves only one value of VP, so it's unnecessary to use the concept of VPs.

So, let's apply Occam's razor and not say a game has VPs when the game can be explained more simply just by leaving them out. If you explain chess without VPs, it's simpler. I suppose if you tried really hard you might be able to explain Puerto Rico without VPs. For example, one clear way to win would be to ship a certain amount more than the other players: so much that buildings couldn't make up the difference. But then to describe winning conditions when that didn't happen (usually), would be quite complicated. Victory points are the simplest explanation.
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NateStraight wrote:
Sure, there are other ways to "win" a game, but the standard method (for video games, board games, game shows, sports, etc) is points.


Funny that you mention video games, because that's a great example supporting the original poster - points used to be the cliche in videogames; these days, videogames that actually track 'points' are in the minority (mostly puzzle games, team-sports games, and extreme-sports games). While a game like Super Mario Bros or Contra or Ghosts and Goblins would have kept track of a 'score', the equivalent titles of the past decade would not. The sole goal of most video games these days is 'completion' - to get to the end and conquer it (a comparable to the original poster's chess game).
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J C Lawrence
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thatmarkguy wrote:
Igel Ärgern


Hedgehogs that finish the race are VPs, first to 4 VPs wins.

Quote:
Fearsome Floors


Successfully exited survivors are VPs.

Quote:
Pitchcar


First over the finish line gets a VP.

Quote:
Lord of the Rings The Confrontation


First player to achive their goal gets a VP.

NateStraight wrote:


Powered cities are VPs.

Quote:


Money is VPs.
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Greg Jones
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In the same vein as Maharaja, Power Grid has no VPs, just cities powered at the end. Dissimilarly, the person who ends the game doesn't necessarily win it.
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Ray
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Anarchosyn wrote:
Anybody else see VPs becoming a cliche?

No. As others have mentioned all sorts of measurable points are VP in disguise. Most money, most types of a certain unit or event, greatest distance traveled, etc. More important for diversity is how does the end of the game occur? Is it a fixed number of turns and then the most points win, is it a points threshold being reached, is it play until a player fails to make an achievement on their turn?
 
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Mark McEvoy
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clearclaw wrote:
Quote:
Pitchcar


First over the finish line gets a VP.

Quote:
Lord of the Rings The Confrontation


First player to achive their goal gets a VP.


Uh, I was answering the original poster - if *he* didn't consider chess to have VP's ("First to place the opponent's king in a position under attack and with no single-move way to relieve it being under attack gets a VP"), then these would satisfy his requirement.

He even went on to specify:

Anarchosyn wrote:
where final configurations of components determines victory and not an arbitrary point or turn number"


It seems odd that you're tearing down my suggestions satisfying his specified requirements. If you want to tear down his requirements, go after *him*, not me.
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Jonathan Morton
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I think the original poster has a good point. I'm pretty new to Euros but right from the get-go I wasn't keen on the concept of VPs. I'm not sure I can put my finger WHY, but the video game example is a good one. When I'm playing a video game that's any good my objective isn't to score points, it's to complete it - defeat the bad guys, find my way out of the maze, build the most powerful civilization, whatever the case may be. Points are a very minor secondary consideration.

---

The idea of describing Chess as having victory points is absurd. If Chess had Euro-style VPs you'd score a point for capturing a pawn and 3 for a knight and so on down the line.

---

Are VPs so common because they're the simple way to avoid player elimination? I'm trying to think of games that have neither. Clue comes to mind, but technically a person can elimate themself.
 
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Jonny5 wrote:
. When I'm playing a video game that's any good my objective isn't to score points, it's to complete it - defeat the bad guys, find my way out of the maze, build the most powerful civilization, whatever the case may be.


Yes, but most Video games today aren't games at all, but puzzles. (Except multiplayer games which are either point based or elimination games)
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Marc Hawkins
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How about Maharaja: Palace building in India? It's a race to build 7 palaces, no VP involved!
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