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Subject: Another day, another summary execution by police officers. [Not a repeat] rss

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Frank F
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http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-falcon...

Minnesota Police Shooting's Aftermath Is Captured in Gruesome Video
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Shawn Fox
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Another example of how owning a gun makes it more likely you'll get shot, especially if you don't have enough sense to know to not move your hands below your ears after you tell an officer you have a gun.
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LightRider wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-falcon...

Minnesota Police Shooting's Aftermath Is Captured in Gruesome Video


This s&$t has got to stop!

I don't get it. What a sad, sad day.
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I have to wonder if many cops just have overdeveloped fear responses now. Some situational awareness should have led the cop to think that the guy just might not be going for a weapon. Woman and kid in the car, allegedly the guy admits he has a gun (why do that if you plan to grab it and shoot the cop?), if the facts play out that way it doesn't seem like the cop was processing the information with proper risk analysis, which suggests an agitated emotional state. Most likely from fear of being shot outweighing his training. All conjecture though, obviously.
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TheChin! wrote:
I have to wonder if many cops just have overdeveloped fear responses now. Some situational awareness should have led the cop to think that the guy just might not be going for a weapon. Woman and kid in the car, allegedly the guy admits he has a gun (why do that if you plan to grab it and shoot the cop?), if the facts play out that way it doesn't seem like the cop was processing the information with proper risk analysis, which suggests an agitated emotional state. Most likely from fear of being shot outweighing his training. All conjecture though, obviously.
Maybe the same reason those wankers at the nature reserve did?

Yes (and I have said it before) I think this is the result of cops who are afraid of having to deal with an arse who sees them as the enemy, and may respond accordingly.

 
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fightcitymayor
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And I have a feeling we all know how this story will go:

* Officers get put on administrative leave.
* Evidence is presented to Grand Jury
* Because officer declares that he "felt threatened" then jury cannot choose to indict
* Officers get a month off & come back to work, either at the same job interacting with the same citizens, or shuffled to some other police force in America to do the same thing with no repercussions

And the Fox News crowd will continue to be honestly confused about why "the blacks" seem so gosh darn mad all the time.
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LightRider wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-falcon...

Minnesota Police Shooting's Aftermath Is Captured in Gruesome Video


Another day, another misleading and "I don't care about the facts let's hang them now!" headline from Lightie........

If only they'd had a resource-based economy...THAT surely would have prevented this!


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sfox wrote:
Another example of how owning a gun makes it more likely you'll get shot, especially if you don't have enough sense to know to not move your hands below your ears after you tell an officer you have a gun.



Wow...that's reaching even for you.


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chrisnd wrote:
LightRider wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-falcon...

Minnesota Police Shooting's Aftermath Is Captured in Gruesome Video


This s&$t has got to stop!

I don't get it. What a sad, sad day.


I don't understand why the woman was handcuffed and taken down the station either? Under what pretext was that done?
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fightcitymayor wrote:
And I have a feeling we all know how this story will go:

* Officers get put on administrative leave.
* Evidence is presented to Grand Jury
* Because officer declares that he "felt threatened" then jury cannot choose to indict
* Officers get a month off & come back to work, either at the same job interacting with the same citizens, or shuffled to some other police force in America to do the same thing with no repercussions

And the Fox News crowd will continue to be honestly confused about why "the blacks" seem so gosh darn mad all the time.

And those of us who are more rational about it don't think this is an incident of racism. Rather it was just a very poor decision by a police officer who panicked, either due to poor training or inexperience. I'll further say that a black person who reads about this incident and instantly jumps to "racism" as the explanation is the one being racist. If you don't want to get shot by the cops then learn to kiss their ass and not to make any move that could even be interpreted as being threatening.

Yes, it sucks to have to deal with the police that way. I'm white, but that is still how I do it. I don't carry a gun, my hands stay on the steering wheel. I say yes sir and no sir, I turn on the dome lights so the officer can clear see inside the car, and I put my license and registration on the dash of my car before the officer makes it to the window to ask me for them. I do this because I don't want a story to show up the next day about how an officer shot me because he thought I was going for my gun. So far it has worked fantastically, not to mention the number of tickets I get out of for being very respectful. I've been pulled over for speeding 11 times and I have only 2 tickets to show for it. One of those was a school zone at 7:00 am and it was complete bullshit, but whatever. Oh yeah... fuck the police!

Seriously though, the cops are just out there doing a job. It isn't a great job, it is dangerous, they have to enforce rules that most people don't like, and most of them have heard stories about how a simple traffic stop turned into a really bad situation. In most cases the perp who caused all the trouble was black, so why the hell shouldn't they be afraid every time they pull over a black man who says he has a gun? I'd be shitting my pants if it were me.
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andyl wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
LightRider wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-falcon...

Minnesota Police Shooting's Aftermath Is Captured in Gruesome Video


This s&$t has got to stop!

I don't get it. What a sad, sad day.


I don't understand why the woman was handcuffed and taken down the station either? Under what pretext was that done?

Sounds like standard procedure to me. A gun is present, someone just got shot, the officer needs to make sure the situation is 100% under control. Police standard operating procedure isn't designed to make everyone happy about the situation, it is designed so that an officer who follows the procedure doesn't get shot.
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fightcitymayor
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sfox wrote:
...and most of them have heard stories about how a simple traffic stop turned into a really bad situation. In most cases the perp who caused all the trouble was black, so why the hell shouldn't they be afraid every time they pull over a black man who says he has a gun?
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sfox wrote:
In most cases the perp who caused all the trouble was black, so why the hell shouldn't they be afraid every time they pull over a black man who says he has a gun?
I think Fergusan showed us that cops pull over blacks more than whites, so it follows that if 75% of the people you pull over for "broken tailight" are black, then 75% of things that go wrong are going to be from black driver/riders. It may be that cops aren't consciously aware of the racism, but it is there.
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sfox wrote:
andyl wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
LightRider wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-falcon...

Minnesota Police Shooting's Aftermath Is Captured in Gruesome Video


This s&$t has got to stop!

I don't get it. What a sad, sad day.


I don't understand why the woman was handcuffed and taken down the station either? Under what pretext was that done?

Sounds like standard procedure to me. A gun is present, someone just got shot, the officer needs to make sure the situation is 100% under control. Police standard operating procedure isn't designed to make everyone happy about the situation, it is designed so that an officer who follows the procedure doesn't get shot.


Really the SOP is to handcuff all the witnesses and take them down to the station? I mean they must have patted the woman down at some stage (which is a reasonable precaution), but once she is out of the car and deemed not armed and dangerous, she is just a witness. She had not committed any crime.
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TheChin! wrote:
sfox wrote:
In most cases the perp who caused all the trouble was black, so why the hell shouldn't they be afraid every time they pull over a black man who says he has a gun?
I think Fergusan showed us that cops pull over blacks more than whites, so it follows that if 75% of the people you pull over for "broken tailight" are black, then 75% of things that go wrong are going to be from black driver/riders. It may be that cops aren't consciously aware of the racism, but it is there.

I don't think you can take one example of a place like Ferguson and say that is an indictment of all cops everywhere. There clearly was some serious racism going on in that town. All I am saying is that people who instantly jump to the "racism" conclusion every time there is an incident between a white police officer and a black man are just as racist as the cops in Ferguson were. We have a lot of that type here on RSP.
 
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andyl wrote:
sfox wrote:
andyl wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
LightRider wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-falcon...

Minnesota Police Shooting's Aftermath Is Captured in Gruesome Video


This s&$t has got to stop!

I don't get it. What a sad, sad day.


I don't understand why the woman was handcuffed and taken down the station either? Under what pretext was that done?

Sounds like standard procedure to me. A gun is present, someone just got shot, the officer needs to make sure the situation is 100% under control. Police standard operating procedure isn't designed to make everyone happy about the situation, it is designed so that an officer who follows the procedure doesn't get shot.


Really the SOP is to handcuff all the witnesses and take them down to the station? I mean they must have patted the woman down at some stage (which is a reasonable precaution), but once she is out of the car and deemed not armed and dangerous, she is just a witness. She had not committed any crime.

I don't know what the SOP is for a situation like that, all I'm saying is that it doesn't sound unreasonable to me. A cop just shot her husband/boyfriend/whatever, the woman is very distraught, it seems reasonable to me to put cuffs on her just in case. You can never tell what someone in a highly emotional situation is going to do. She may not have a gun, but that doesn't stop her from grabbing one from the cops. Calm the situation and then reassess. If I were there and able to process what was going on I think that is what I'd do, but I would explain to her why I was doing it.

I do think that is something that is often missing in police training. The police don't tell people why they do things, they just demand that people do them. Give people a reason why they have to do something and generally you are far more likely to get compliance, even if the reason is a bad one.
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sfox wrote:
andyl wrote:
sfox wrote:
andyl wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
LightRider wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-falcon...

Minnesota Police Shooting's Aftermath Is Captured in Gruesome Video


This s&$t has got to stop!

I don't get it. What a sad, sad day.


I don't understand why the woman was handcuffed and taken down the station either? Under what pretext was that done?

Sounds like standard procedure to me. A gun is present, someone just got shot, the officer needs to make sure the situation is 100% under control. Police standard operating procedure isn't designed to make everyone happy about the situation, it is designed so that an officer who follows the procedure doesn't get shot.


Really the SOP is to handcuff all the witnesses and take them down to the station? I mean they must have patted the woman down at some stage (which is a reasonable precaution), but once she is out of the car and deemed not armed and dangerous, she is just a witness. She had not committed any crime.

I don't know what the SOP is for a situation like that, all I'm saying is that it doesn't sound unreasonable to me. A cop just shot her husband/boyfriend/whatever, the woman is very distraught, it seems reasonable to me to put cuffs on her just in case. You can never tell what someone in a highly emotional situation is going to do. She may not have a gun, but that doesn't stop her from grabbing one from the cops. Calm the situation and then reassess.


Well she seemed pretty damn calm to me. All she wanted was her young child near her. However I would have to say there are far better ways to calm people down than putting handcuffs on them.
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Ferretman wrote:
sfox wrote:
Another example of how owning a gun makes it more likely you'll get shot, especially if you don't have enough sense to know to not move your hands below your ears after you tell an officer you have a gun.



Wow...that's reaching even for you.

Ferret


Owning a gun is more risky in terms of being harmed by a gun than by not owning a gun.

That should be terribly obvious.
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sfox wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
And I have a feeling we all know how this story will go:

* Officers get put on administrative leave.
* Evidence is presented to Grand Jury
* Because officer declares that he "felt threatened" then jury cannot choose to indict
* Officers get a month off & come back to work, either at the same job interacting with the same citizens, or shuffled to some other police force in America to do the same thing with no repercussions

And the Fox News crowd will continue to be honestly confused about why "the blacks" seem so gosh darn mad all the time.

And those of us who are more rational about it don't think this is an incident of racism. Rather it was just a very poor decision by a police officer who panicked, either due to poor training or inexperience. I'll further say that a black person who reads about this incident and instantly jumps to "racism" as the explanation is the one being racist. If you don't want to get shot by the cops then learn to kiss their ass and not to make any move that could even be interpreted as being threatening.

Yes, it sucks to have to deal with the police that way. I'm white, but that is still how I do it. I don't carry a gun, my hands stay on the steering wheel. I say yes sir and no sir, I turn on the dome lights so the officer can clear see inside the car, and I put my license and registration on the dash of my car before the officer makes it to the window to ask me for them. I do this because I don't want a story to show up the next day about how an officer shot me because he thought I was going for my gun. So far it has worked fantastically, not to mention the number of tickets I get out of for being very respectful. I've been pulled over for speeding 11 times and I have only 2 tickets to show for it. One of those was a school zone at 7:00 am and it was complete bullshit, but whatever. Oh yeah... fuck the police!

Seriously though, the cops are just out there doing a job. It isn't a great job, it is dangerous, they have to enforce rules that most people don't like, and most of them have heard stories about how a simple traffic stop turned into a really bad situation. In most cases the perp who caused all the trouble was black, so why the hell shouldn't they be afraid every time they pull over a black man who says he has a gun? I'd be shitting my pants if it were me.


I agree on the wisdom of keeping your hands on the steering wheel (I do it also) and asking for permission (not making a big deal but just "I would like to get my insurance card out of the glove box is that okay?" and then doing it slowly) before doing anything.

On the other hand, if we had a young white pregnant female in the same seat, she would have not been shot. Officers who are not properly trained shoot blacks faster than whites. Officers who ARE properly trained take longer to NOT shoot blacks. Officers who ARE properly trained still assign older ages to black children.

So racism is in there too at the best of times.

At the worst of times (Ferguson and select other small town police forces) you find a history of explicit racism and racist jokes.

We have such a high bar for executing people in this country (innocent til proved guilty) but such a low bar for police officers being legally allowed to execute people.

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sfox wrote:
andyl wrote:
sfox wrote:
andyl wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
LightRider wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-falcon...

Minnesota Police Shooting's Aftermath Is Captured in Gruesome Video


This s&$t has got to stop!

I don't get it. What a sad, sad day.


I don't understand why the woman was handcuffed and taken down the station either? Under what pretext was that done?

Sounds like standard procedure to me. A gun is present, someone just got shot, the officer needs to make sure the situation is 100% under control. Police standard operating procedure isn't designed to make everyone happy about the situation, it is designed so that an officer who follows the procedure doesn't get shot.


Really the SOP is to handcuff all the witnesses and take them down to the station? I mean they must have patted the woman down at some stage (which is a reasonable precaution), but once she is out of the car and deemed not armed and dangerous, she is just a witness. She had not committed any crime.

I don't know what the SOP is for a situation like that, all I'm saying is that it doesn't sound unreasonable to me. A cop just shot her husband/boyfriend/whatever, the woman is very distraught, it seems reasonable to me to put cuffs on her just in case. You can never tell what someone in a highly emotional situation is going to do. She may not have a gun, but that doesn't stop her from grabbing one from the cops. Calm the situation and then reassess. If I were there and able to process what was going on I think that is what I'd do, but I would explain to her why I was doing it.

I do think that is something that is often missing in police training. The police don't tell people why they do things, they just demand that people do them. Give people a reason why they have to do something and generally you are far more likely to get compliance, even if the reason is a bad one.


Many of the current training models (and articles in police magazines) emphasize "taking control" of the situation by aggressive behavior, loud voices, and physically overpowering subjects.

https://www.google.com/#q=police+training+to+get+compliance

Gaining Compliance with Targeted Pressure

"The amount of effort required by police to compel compliance by an unwilling subject. ... Police Training Model: In 1999, the COPS Office provided funding to PERF ...

Reality Training: Preparing for non-compliance in an instant - PoliceOne

etc.

Articles on deescalation are more recent and even for large cities have titles like this from may of 2016...

Police 'de-escalation' training — how it could help Chicago - Chicago ...
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In cases like this, indictment or no, the person should not be allowed to continue as a police officer. 'I shot someone who was in no way going for a weapon or a threat' should be a reasonable disqualifying point.
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sfox wrote:
TheChin! wrote:
sfox wrote:
In most cases the perp who caused all the trouble was black, so why the hell shouldn't they be afraid every time they pull over a black man who says he has a gun?
I think Fergusan showed us that cops pull over blacks more than whites, so it follows that if 75% of the people you pull over for "broken tailight" are black, then 75% of things that go wrong are going to be from black driver/riders. It may be that cops aren't consciously aware of the racism, but it is there.

I don't think you can take one example of a place like Ferguson and say that is an indictment of all cops everywhere. There clearly was some serious racism going on in that town. All I am saying is that people who instantly jump to the "racism" conclusion every time there is an incident between a white police officer and a black man are just as racist as the cops in Ferguson were. We have a lot of that type here on RSP.


I think that racism is more internalized than most people would like to admit. I'm not so sure that if the victim here was white with wife and kid in the car the cop would have had an over heightened sense of danger. If cops are indeed hearing stories about black perps being dangerous then whenever he stops a black person he is likely to have an overly heightened sense of danger where little to none may be warranted. It's not overt, but it's definitely there.
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I hate the fact this will lead to people condemning the police, when 95% of the cops are good people trying their best to do one of the shittiest jobs in America.

That said, this crap is really, really getting out of hand. Shooting a guy point blank while he's laying on the ground restrained by a police officer (Baton Rouge)??? Shooting a guy who is sitting in his car with his girlfriend and child (Minnesota)??? And it's, ahem, "mere" coincidence both victims were black, both shooters were white? This is appalling behavior. There is no justification for either shooting.
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andyl wrote:
chrisnd wrote:
LightRider wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/08/us/philando-castile-falcon...

Minnesota Police Shooting's Aftermath Is Captured in Gruesome Video


This s&$t has got to stop!

I don't get it. What a sad, sad day.


I don't understand why the woman was handcuffed and taken down the station either? Under what pretext was that done?


Using the word "pretext" here especially at this time implies use of emotion, not facts.


Ferret
 
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Terwox wrote:
Ferretman wrote:
sfox wrote:
Another example of how owning a gun makes it more likely you'll get shot, especially if you don't have enough sense to know to not move your hands below your ears after you tell an officer you have a gun.



Wow...that's reaching even for you.

Ferret


Owning a gun is more risky in terms of being harmed by a gun than by not owning a gun.

That should be terribly obvious.



I'm afraid it's not....everybody I know has multiple firearms, and nobody has been harmed by one.

They most just sit there and collect dust, which is annoying (I don't get to shoot as much as I'd like).



Ferret
 
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