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Subject: We've been using the "Brig" wrong rss

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Chris P
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I just noticed we've been interpreting the "Brig" skill check incorrectly.

Rulebook pg 18 wrote:
Brig: The current player attempts
to escape the “Brig” location. A 7
difficulty politics/tactics skill check is
resolved with the following results.
– Pass: The current player may
move his character to any space on
Galactica.
– Fail: No Effect


Many times we've used Executive Order on the player in the Brig to use the action, and them getting out if the check passes. This isn't allowed according to the rulebook as they wouldn't be the current player. To escape the Brig, they'd have to use the action on their own turn (or XO someone who's in the Brig with them).

I don't think this is what's intended though... the rulebook says "The current player attempts to escape the Brig" which would suggest they didn't consider the possibilty that the current player isn't in the Brig when the Brig is activated. It also seems a little weird that it would strictly allow the current player to move again if the check passes, even if they weren't even in the Brig (seems pointless but could allow a character to use a Movement ability in their movement step and then move in their action step).

An oversight or is it intended this way?

 
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Janne
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I would say it's an oversight. In the rulebook it's 'current player' for all gameboard skill checks (Administration, Admiral's quarters).
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Pasi Ojala
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The reference to current player is an example of a normal situation. See the what the action in the Brig says.

Brig wrote:
You may not move, draw Crisis Cards or play more than 1 card to skill checks.
Action: Pass this skill check to move to any location.


.. on Galactica.

So you can use the Brig action if you're in the brig and receive an action from any source, even when you're not the current player.

Edit: If this gets ruled the other way, I will call it our house-rule. Only being able to trigger the Brig check on your own turn will make the game so much harder on the human players.
 
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Chris P
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jhsa wrote:
I would say it's an oversight. In the rulebook it's 'current player' for all gameboard skill checks (Administration, Admiral's quarters).
I also think it's an oversight but your claim is incorrect - Administration says "Pass: The nominated player claims the President title." and AQ says "Pass: The accused character is moved to the “Brig.”" The Brig specifically refers to the current player.
Misinterpreted your point. In fact they all say that the current player chooses who to nominate/accuse, rather than the player activating the location.

a1bert wrote:
The reference to current player is an example of a normal situation. See the what the action in the Brig says.
I would tend to agree, although you could consider the text on the location to be a reminder/shorthand for the text in the rulebook, especially seeing as "... on Galactica" was omitted.
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Robert
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That's an interesting detail. I'm very curious to know whether it is intended that only the current player can trigger gameboard skill checks. (This would conform to the previous ruling that the text in the rulebook precedes the text on the board concerning movement after a successful breakout to Galactica locations only.)

But it would mean that some locations on the board can be used on an XO while others cannot, which is probably not intended.

Edit: After reading Chris' post I understand that this is not completely true, but it still seems unlikely that the brig can't be activated when the current player is not a prisoner.
 
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Janne
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Okay, from UFAQ.

Quote:
Q: If an XO'd player activates a board location requiring a skill check, who decides the target: Current Player, or XO'd Player? (thread))
A: (Corey, FFG, to mainmandetroit) The player who was given the XO.


And that thread link says:

Quote:
Officially from Corey:

...

2. The player who is given the XO decides what happens in both the Administration and the Admiral's Quarters.


That clears Adm & AQ, so I'd say it's the same for Brig check (since target of Adm & AQ is other player and in the Brig it is self).
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Chris P
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We know that an XO'd player can activate a board location. I suppose it doesn't make sense to XO someone in the Brig unless they could free themselves so I too would be tempted to draw a parallel for the Brig based on Corey's response, but the fact is he doesn't actually mention the Brig.

We could infer from the fact than an XO'd player can activate, and choose the target of, Admin and AQ that an XO'd player can also activate, and benefit from, the Brig but that is merely an interpretation.
 
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Carl Bussema
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Right, see, Admin, AQ, Airlock all instruct you to choose a player, and that's why there's the UFAQ clarification on them. Brig does not require a target (nor allow one), because it didn't make sense to; it would always be the player taking the action.

The rulebook has plenty of other minor problems where it breaks down in the middle of an XO (or worse, State of Emergency from Exodus); consider the instructions for "revealing as a Cylon," which state that the turn ends after the reveal, and we all know that's not true if the reveal happened off an XO.

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Throknor
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InfoCynic wrote:
Right, see, Admin, AQ, Airlock all instruct you to choose a player, and that's why there's the UFAQ clarification on them. Brig does not require a target (nor allow one), because it didn't make sense to; it would always be the player taking the action.

The rulebook has plenty of other minor problems where it breaks down in the middle of an XO (or worse, State of Emergency from Exodus); consider the instructions for "revealing as a Cylon," which state that the turn ends after the reveal, and we all know that's not true if the reveal happened off an XO.


It seems a clarification could be "An XO'd player counts as the 'current player' until his last Action is completed at which point it reverts to the turn's actual player for normal end-of-turn resolution." Or something similar; can't look up the proper terms for the end-of-turn parts right now. I think this would resolve all board spaces at once, as well as the reveal: the Action was to reveal; once completed the current player reverts to the original. Since they didn't reveal their turn continues as normal. This also covers the counter-example of the player in the brig playing XO on a player outside the brig since it specifies the end-of-turn reverts current player status to that player so the normal Crisis prevention still occurs.

Just a thought. Obviously might need cleaned up to be an actual 'clarification' but I think I got the idea across.
 
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Chris P
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Throknor wrote:
It seems a clarification could be "An XO'd player counts as the 'current player' until his last Action is completed at which point it reverts to the turn's actual player for normal end-of-turn resolution."

That would work in some cases but maybe not others. Eg if an XOd player starts a skill check, and a skill check ability causes the current player to gain a miracle token/mutiny card, who gets it? And who plays last into the skill check? Who decides the order of skill check abilities or benefits from Quick Thinking or Network Upgrades (realise a lot of these examples require expansions)? For consistency perhaps all these effects should transfer over to the XOd player, can't think right now if that would be an issue or not but it would be a lot of situations.
 
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Throknor
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m0rgana wrote:
Throknor wrote:
It seems a clarification could be "An XO'd player counts as the 'current player' until his last Action is completed at which point it reverts to the turn's actual player for normal end-of-turn resolution."

That would work in some cases but maybe not others. Eg if an XOd player starts a skill check, and a skill check ability causes the current player to gain a miracle token/mutiny card, who gets it? And who plays last into the skill check? Who decides the order of skill check abilities or benefits from Quick Thinking or Network Upgrades (realise a lot of these examples require expansions)? For consistency perhaps all these effects should transfer over to the XOd player, can't think right now if that would be an issue or not but it would be a lot of situations.

Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with those. But it seemed implied in the Admin/AdmiralQ answer the check initiated by the XOd player would start with them so I'd say the same should apply to the Brig and any other checks and that it follows to treat them as the Current Player as needed for any effects/decisions tied to the Action they take.

It just seems most straight-forward to be 'I'm not doing anything, pretend it is his/her turn for Action(s)'; reverting back for the end-of-turn Crisis card (if appropriate).
 
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There is not need to change who's the current player.

The current player have receive skills, movement, action and crisis steps. The action step provides the current player an action to use. The action step is just providing an action.

A player can receive an action from other sources than the action step. One of them is Executive Order played on them. The second one is Critical Situation, which lets to perform an action during the movement step instead of movement. Character abilities can provide actions (Apollo's Alert Viper Pilot). You can get an action from the CAG title card (Exodus). Hangar Deck action gives another action.

None of the actions are tied to being the current player, especially not Alert Viper Pilot. Only the rulebook is written in a way that assumes the current player is performing the actions. So the only thing to fix is the rules and change current player to the player who's performing the action (i.e. activating the location in this case).

This makes things actually correspond to reality without introducing more complications without any benefits by changing how the turn structure works.
 
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Carl Bussema
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Generally speaking, if the rulebook is talking about what happens during an action step, you can substitute "the player taking the action" for "current player." This is not true for:
1) FTL Control. The current player rolls the die even if they're not the one taking the action. [Some groups house rule this; it's a weird exception.]
2) Action-step crisis resolution; once you get into the actual crisis after deciding the target (if needed), you follow all the rules based on the actual current player, so left of actual current player plays first, actual current player decides if a skill card effect (Exodus/Daybreak) requires a choice, if it's a Caprica crisis (possible with Exodus) then the actual current player makes any "Current Player chooses" decisions.
 
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InfoCynic wrote:
1) FTL Control. The current player rolls the die even if they're not the one taking the action. [Some groups house rule this; it's a weird exception.]

Yes, and it exactly relates to this discussion. It's a weird exception because the rulebook once again uses "current player" instead of "the character activating the FTL Control location", and thus by rules as written, the current player performs the dice roll. (Which you know.)

It would also be fixed with the overhaul of the rulebook.

(And FFG rules according to rules as written if possible, because then you don't need errata and don't get into inconsistent rulings - at least that often. Trying to rule according to intent is a slippery slope and creates just more exceptions.)
 
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Geoff C
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Too much overthink here.

If the current player hands off his action to another player via XO, he is no longer the current player until the nominated player finishes his action, or that player could not take his action.

Player nominated by XO therefore must be the current player until that action is complete.
 
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Talonz wrote:
Player nominated by XO therefore must be the current player until that action is complete.

Nope, that would cause a lot of issues. There is a current player token, which does not move during XO, Alert Viper Pilot, or any other source of action.

I agree about the overthinking though.
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Chris P
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InfoCynic wrote:
2) Action-step crisis resolution; once you get into the actual crisis after deciding the target (if needed), you follow all the rules based on the actual current player, so left of actual current player plays first, actual current player decides if a skill card effect (Exodus/Daybreak) requires a choice, if it's a Caprica crisis (possible with Exodus) then the actual current player makes any "Current Player chooses" decisions.

Are you referring to State of Emergency? I was trying to think of examples where a crisis requiring a choice might occur during an Action step. Clear in that case that the current player doesnt move from one player to the next during each player's action, so I don't see why it would with an XO.

SoE always causes an effing nightmare. It should read "Only one State of Emergency or Executive Order card may be played per turn".
 
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Carl Bussema
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Yes, to get:
1. "Current Player chooses" crisis (from the Crisis deck, not just a skill check)
2. Action step
3. Current player is not the one who took the action (on Caprica, the only place this can happen)

You need State of Emergency (Exodus) OR an Infiltrating Athena (Daybreak) using her Miracle ability. I believe those are the only possibilities.

And yes, SoE is a nightmare. With the ruling that played actions are immediately discarded, I expect someone could come up with some evil infinite-regression SoE chain, since the SoE doesn't even to be done resolving before someone else could draw it (Captain's Cabin?) and play it.
 
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Robert Stewart
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InfoCynic wrote:
And yes, SoE is a nightmare. With the ruling that played actions are immediately discarded, I expect someone could come up with some evil infinite-regression SoE chain, since the SoE doesn't even to be done resolving before someone else could draw it (Captain's Cabin?) and play it.


Yeah, there's a thread over on the Exodus forums that lays out a 1-turn human victory through SoE abuse.
 
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Geoff C
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a1bert wrote:
Talonz wrote:
Player nominated by XO therefore must be the current player until that action is complete.

Nope, that would cause a lot of issues.


Like what?

Quote:
There is a current player token, which does not move during XO, Alert Viper Pilot, or any other source of action.

I agree about the overthinking though.


Its there as a reminder as to whose turn it is, exactly because of issues like this.
 
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Carl Bussema
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If the player who receives the XO becomes current player, it would mess with a lot of skill check effects (from Exodus and Daybreak). On the positive side, it would also fix the "Can Damage Galactica" Cylon reveal power. If XO-equals-current-player, does an XO to Starbuck-in-space mean three actions?

Then there's even more chaos if you consider what State of Emergency could do. So Player 1 XO's player 2, who becomes current player, then he plays State of Emergency for the first action, takes SoE action, P3 now becomes current player... Cylons on Caprica get even more powerful with fishing for Current Player chooses crises, plus they get to play last into any checks that they initiate... yeah, that seems bad.
 
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Geoff C
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InfoCynic wrote:
If the player who receives the XO becomes current player, it would mess with a lot of skill check effects (from Exodus and Daybreak).


I don't use sideboards from the expansions, so you would have to expand on that.

Quote:
Then there's even more chaos if you consider what State of Emergency could do. So Player 1 XO's player 2, who becomes current player, then he plays State of Emergency for the first action, takes SoE action, P3 now becomes current player...


How is this an issue? Everyone takes an action from SOE, then play continues from the original player. No change, no issue.

Quote:
Cylons on Caprica get even more powerful with fishing for Current Player chooses crises, plus they get to play last into any checks that they initiate... yeah, that seems bad.


How is this any different, whether they fish on their turn or via xo? Crisis choices revert to actual current player after XO action.
 
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Carl Bussema
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So let's say that the target of XO/the player currently acting during SoE is "current player."

For reference, let's say Saul Tigh is the actual current player.

Tigh XO's his beloved wife, and Ellen decides that she doesn't trust Apollo (in reality, Apollo just refused her advances, we all know the truth, Ellen!) and wants to throw him in the Brig. Saul, having previously seen Apollo's loyalty card, knows he's human and disagrees with this action, but the skill check has to run as Ellen wants.

Now at the end of the check, after revealing all the cards, there's a Quick Thinking card, and the check happens to be sitting at exactly 7 in favor of putting Apollo in the Brig. There's a 3-Strategic Planning among the various cards counting toward Apollo's demise, which is a legal selection for Quick Thinking, which is to be done at the current player's choice.

So if current player is SAUL TIGH, Apollo will escape the Brig. If the current player is ELLEN TIGH, she'll probably pick up something else that she finds useful, like a Scientific Research that Starbuck tossed in to help out her fellow Pilot.

Same thing can happen with SoE and a Cylon on Caprica; or the Dogfight skill card, or similar effects with Force their Hand, or other skill cards.
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Throknor
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InfoCynic wrote:
So let's say that the target of XO/the player currently acting during SoE is "current player."

For reference, let's say Saul Tigh is the actual current player.

Tigh XO's his beloved wife, and Ellen decides that she doesn't trust Apollo (in reality, Apollo just refused her advances, we all know the truth, Ellen!) and wants to throw him in the Brig. Saul, having previously seen Apollo's loyalty card, knows he's human and disagrees with this action, but the skill check has to run as Ellen wants.

Now at the end of the check, after revealing all the cards, there's a Quick Thinking card, and the check happens to be sitting at exactly 7 in favor of putting Apollo in the Brig. There's a 3-Strategic Planning among the various cards counting toward Apollo's demise, which is a legal selection for Quick Thinking, which is to be done at the current player's choice.

So if current player is SAUL TIGH, Apollo will escape the Brig. If the current player is ELLEN TIGH, she'll probably pick up something else that she finds useful, like a Scientific Research that Starbuck tossed in to help out her fellow Pilot.

Same thing can happen with SoE and a Cylon on Caprica; or the Dogfight skill card, or similar effects with Force their Hand, or other skill cards.

Ellen started the check, the card came up during the check, 'current player' refers to her. Once the check she started and anything happening because of that check is finished, then 'current player' status reverts to Saul and the turn's Crisis card is drawn by him.

(I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the card; I'm going off how it is described.)
 
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Carl Bussema
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Throknor wrote:
InfoCynic wrote:
So let's say that the target of XO/the player currently acting during SoE is "current player."

For reference, let's say Saul Tigh is the actual current player.

Tigh XO's his beloved wife, and Ellen decides that she doesn't trust Apollo (in reality, Apollo just refused her advances, we all know the truth, Ellen!) and wants to throw him in the Brig. Saul, having previously seen Apollo's loyalty card, knows he's human and disagrees with this action, but the skill check has to run as Ellen wants.

Now at the end of the check, after revealing all the cards, there's a Quick Thinking card, and the check happens to be sitting at exactly 7 in favor of putting Apollo in the Brig. There's a 3-Strategic Planning among the various cards counting toward Apollo's demise, which is a legal selection for Quick Thinking, which is to be done at the current player's choice.

So if current player is SAUL TIGH, Apollo will escape the Brig. If the current player is ELLEN TIGH, she'll probably pick up something else that she finds useful, like a Scientific Research that Starbuck tossed in to help out her fellow Pilot.

Same thing can happen with SoE and a Cylon on Caprica; or the Dogfight skill card, or similar effects with Force their Hand, or other skill cards.

Ellen started the check, the card came up during the check, 'current player' refers to her. Once the check she started and anything happening because of that check is finished, then 'current player' status reverts to Saul and the turn's Crisis card is drawn by him.

(I'm not familiar with the exact wording of the card; I'm going off how it is described.)


That's a big change from Rules as Written though, and it seriously changes the implications and power level of cards in ways I wouldn't want to think about. One of the mitigating factors of XO/SoE is that you, as the actual current player, still have that important role of making "current player's choice." If you give that up, it means that you have to trust the person getting the XO/SoE even more than you already do under RAW.

I mean, it's your game, your house rules, just know that you're changing things in ways that may not be predictable.
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