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Subject: Thoughts on gameplay? rss

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Tunguska Incident
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I am hugely tempted by the kickstarter. I put $1 down just in case. I think without doubt, the quality (and quantity) of miniatures offers great value for money- probably worth it to get my hands on and paint all these beauties.

However, having read the WIP rules and watched the gameplay video, I am still not completely sold on the game.

Let's state the obvious- good things:

+simple rule set
+full co-op
+generous loot and xp
+beautiful production values (obviously)
+light/dark theme is interesting

But here are my concerns:

- is there enough decision making?
- gameplay looks slow and grindy
- massive luck fest
- limited access to healing/recovery (no rest action, limited/unreliable revival mechanic, looks like players could just end up sitting out multiple rounds- no fun). This in turn means that others could get way too far ahead. Also no XP for healing.
- Unbalanced XP gains and no catch up mechanics. This was covered elsewhere and people said that a good team would need to cooperate to avoid players racing ahead. However, the demo made it look like the team might be too busy 'fire fighting' to pass over kills (and xp) and allow others to catch up. Perhaps it needs a mechanic for sharing xp?
-shadow/stealth mechanic seems a little under-developed. Thematically I would like to see classes which benefit from fighting or healing in the light (paladin and priests healing. Barbarians rage/fire).
-no indication of how character persistence will work
-Rules generally seem a bit undercooked for a game at this stage?

I would love to see more gameplay. It seems like a good team would look to avoid damage by constantly setting up 'ambushes' for mobs while trying to even out the kills/xp. This might be a good, light coop game for beer drinking fun or it could end up being a massive grindfest.

But the minis! I suppose they'd always be good for D&D...
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Peter Baker
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The video I have pretty much discounted, it sounds like they are changing a lot of game-play elements bar the damage defence and treasure systems.

My thoughts are, if you have a group of players who all want to act out their own fantastical personas it is going to take a while to play and you will end up with players wounded left and right.

If you're team agrees on a clear strategy or there is a group leader (which may not be fun) things will probably go more smoothly and swiftly.

I do think there will be a grinding element to this with so many mobs. The good news is with the focus on larger mobs and a variety of mechanics with the smaller ones, I think there will be a lot more variety to combat than Zombicide (which I love) and the linear layout of dungeons will also help in focusing the flow of the game with less back tracking in theory.
 
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Tunguska Incident
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Interesting, thank you. I hadn't spotted any more info on gameplay changes- do you have a link?
 
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Chris Nutt
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Tunguska wrote:
Interesting, thank you. I hadn't spotted any more info on gameplay changes- do you have a link?


The only change to gameplay was adding a story mode and a second campaign.

Otherwise the rules in the gameplay video and found within the already released rulebook are the exact same.
 
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Gábor Both
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I am no longer too worried about the lack of decisions. Once your party finds itself between a rock and a hard place, there are going to be some hard decisions of positioning and risk management.
 
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Quiarcus
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Yeah, for me it's a stepping stone. My child is currently 5 and loves Zombicide Black Plague, but isn't ready for the more advanced dungeon crawlers. This will turn up when they are six, and looks just simple enough to be a blast to play with them. I doubt that it will get much time with the missus (too easy I would imagine), but if it does then it's an added bonus!
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Jack Francisco
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Exo Desta wrote:
My gut feeling says that while GG landed on the fun-but-simple setup of Z-cide, I don't think they can pull it off twice in a row. Their lack of ambition in the rules-building dept makes me think that Z-cide was blind luck, and I feel like this game is going to be so boring that we won't be able to stand it.

All we do is enter a room, spawn mobs, kill said mobs, then enter the next room?

I think this is the game that pulls back the curtain and reveals the warts of the CMoN machine.

I'm still backing, so I hope I'm wrong, but I suppose I would be happy to waste this $120, in order to see part of this non-rules-building empire crumble.


Haha! I've been thinking the same thing. If I decide to back (am in for $1 right now), it will be solely for the minis as I have little to no hope that the game itself will be something that I will want to play.
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MM
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senorcoo wrote:
Exo Desta wrote:
My gut feeling says that while GG landed on the fun-but-simple setup of Z-cide, I don't think they can pull it off twice in a row. Their lack of ambition in the rules-building dept makes me think that Z-cide was blind luck, and I feel like this game is going to be so boring that we won't be able to stand it.

All we do is enter a room, spawn mobs, kill said mobs, then enter the next room?

I think this is the game that pulls back the curtain and reveals the warts of the CMoN machine.

I'm still backing, so I hope I'm wrong, but I suppose I would be happy to waste this $120, in order to see part of this non-rules-building empire crumble.


Haha! I've been thinking the same thing. If I decide to back (am in for $1 right now), it will be solely for the minis as I have little to no hope that the game itself will be something that I will want to play.


I with you, Jack. I haven't even kicked $1 at this point. If I do it, its only to get the miniatures. BUT when I look at all the miniatures I currently have, and the boatload due on my doorstep later this year, I am already overwhelmed. My frugal side is telling me to pass and spend the $120+ on something a bit more compelling.
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Sky Zero
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Play a game of Zombicide. There you go.
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fightcitymayor
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"This is a really weird game, and you’ll find that most people will not want to play this."
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Sometimes I don't understand people:

Z:Black Plague = so simple, so easy to play, BEST GAME EVAR! NEED ALL EXPANSIONS TODAY!
Massive Darkness = so simple, so easy to play, PFFFTT YEAH DUDE I WOULD NEVER PLAY THIS, SO DUMB, SO BORING, NOT EVEN SPENDING A DOLLAR!

For me, I'm looking forward to a simple dungeon crawl with CMON-level minis.
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David Russell
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Generally speaking all dungeon crawlers are repetitive - enter a room, see whats there and then try to kill it before it gives you too much damage. Different mission objectives can mix it up a bit and events are nice but they dont change the overall mechanics usually. They are also dice and luck heavy too and thats the point of them i think.

I love them, all have slight variations on a theme and some are definately better than others (Warhammer Quest/Descent 2nd) - even the great Warhammer Quest has luck and repetitiveness. However the variety should come from the different monster types and abilities, and the game shines when you start to discuss who is doing what, showing off when you battle heroically or hang your head when you miss a critical hit. Its a group game about getting into character and not so much a tactical puzzle really - there are other games that are more tactically driven (Descent 2nd).

Yes i think this game is fairly simple and doesnt span campaigns much but that should help it get played often with changing groups. It isnt so much a same group playing and developing their characters game as a pick up and play and have fun. What it does have is loads of great models and every dungeon may well get a different set appearing for a while anyway which does make it a good choice for variety.

For me its worth getting and i already own the best dungeon crawlers around. I think its going to be better than the D&D sets (Ravenloft/Ashardalon/Drizzt) and will probably lead to that leaving my shelf.

Also any really annoying rules that do appear can be house ruled out or changed for the better given its relatively simply structure.

This all said i dont see this at its best as a solo game, this will best as a group fun game but probably wont have the tactical depth a solo gamer may be looking for. That my opinion of course given the knowledge available.
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Brandon Holmes
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Have there been any new videos or anything that might convince me one way or the other? Has anyone got to play it at a convention or something and had a strong opinion? I watched the gameplay video and have some mild interest. I have been busy prepping and selling my home though so I haven't followed this Kickstarter though.
 
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Tunguska Incident
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bholmes4 wrote:
Have there been any new videos or anything that might convince me one way or the other? Has anyone got to play it at a convention or something and had a strong opinion? I watched the gameplay video and have some mild interest. I have been busy prepping and selling my home though so I haven't followed this Kickstarter though.


+1 for more gameplay!
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Tunguska Incident
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fightcitymayor wrote:
Sometimes I don't understand people:

Z:Black Plague = so simple, so easy to play, BEST GAME EVAR! NEED ALL EXPANSIONS TODAY!
Massive Darkness = so simple, so easy to play, PFFFTT YEAH DUDE I WOULD NEVER PLAY THIS, SO DUMB, SO BORING, NOT EVEN SPENDING A DOLLAR!

For me, I'm looking forward to a simple dungeon crawl with CMON-level minis.


Simple and easy is great. My worry is if it's too repetitive or lacks meaningful decision making...
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Tunguska Incident
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crusaderlord wrote:
Generally speaking all dungeon crawlers are repetitive - enter a room, see whats there and then try to kill it before it gives you too much damage. Different mission objectives can mix it up a bit and events are nice but they dont change the overall mechanics usually. They are also dice and luck heavy too and thats the point of them i think.


I thought Imperial Assault, for example, managed to make good use of objective-based gameplay. Scenarios were very varied.
 
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MM
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bholmes4 wrote:
Have there been any new videos or anything that might convince me one way or the other? Has anyone got to play it at a convention or something and had a strong opinion? I watched the gameplay video and have some mild interest. I have been busy prepping and selling my home though so I haven't followed this Kickstarter though.


Kick this at $1 and see what comes out after KS closes. CMON will send you a Pledge Manager invite where you can purchase if you want. If not, you're out $1 ...

Probably what I am doing considering the massive amount of miniatures draws me like a moth to a flame. I am really trying to resist that, however. laugh
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Jeff K
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I think it has been said many times, but if people are looking for a deep dungeon crawl experience, then this isn't going to be it. I really don't think C'Mon ever intended this to be Descent 3.0.

You're barking up the wrong tree. This is really a skirmish style game, with some RPG/dungeon crawl elements to it. Think Conan, not Descent.

You are looking to the game to be something it was not intended to be. Of course it won't be that. I'd say move on, if that's what you want, but I think it is a bit odd to run it down for not being something other than what it was intended to be. OTOH, if you are looking at it as a light skirmish game, I speculate it's going to be pretty successful at that, and probably a lot of fun.
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David Russell
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Yes Fantasy Flight are excellent at writing scenarios and both Descent 2nd and Imperial Assault are so great at providing storylines and objectives that change and are interesting (i have played both a lot in a group situation).

However we then get to argue how close to a dungeon crawler either of them are - they are definately variants on the pure theme of random encounters and events.

Personally i would have one/both of these (Descent 2nd/Imperial Assault) and also have a more random explore and destroy game (Massive Darkness/Warhammer Quest) in my collection as they offer a different style of gaming, albeit with theme and mechanic similarities going on.

As everyone is noting - Massive Darkness is aiming itself at a certain group, it you want a tactical game then go for Descent of Imperial Assault, if you want levelling up between campaigns and more roleplay elements available then search out the original Warhammer Quest. If you have tried the D&D series (Ravenloft/Ashardalon/Drizzt) and wanted a bit more but like its simplicity and quick rule style and its ability to easy scale for the number of players then id back this.
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Andreas
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Exo Desta wrote:
fightcitymayor wrote:
Sometimes I don't understand people:

Z:Black Plague = so simple, so easy to play, BEST GAME EVAR! NEED ALL EXPANSIONS TODAY!
Massive Darkness = so simple, so easy to play, PFFFTT YEAH DUDE I WOULD NEVER PLAY THIS, SO DUMB, SO BORING, NOT EVEN SPENDING A DOLLAR!

For me, I'm looking forward to a simple dungeon crawl with CMON-level minis.

Z:BP = simple tower defense game where the action keeps your attention on the other side of the map, while at the same time you must deal with what's in front of you.

MD (so far) = enter room after room with nothing to keep your attention away from the oh-so-simple here-and-now but the occasional roaming monster.

This is gonna end up being a HUGE difference.


+1
This perfectly sums up my Feelings towards this game (unfortunately)...
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Ricky W
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I doubt I have much more information than you, so my remarks are guesses and thoughts.


Tunguska wrote:
- is there enough decision making?
Yes. Who hides where/ever changing light/dark configurations? Who soaks damage? Who soaks damage if tank is too wounded and how / who helps soaking? What combat type, abilities, and special abilities do enemies have and how to counter them? Who specializes his character in which direction? Who should use which item/gear? etc. etc.

Tunguska wrote:
- gameplay looks slow and grindy
If you have to explain/show much and if you have fun joking around with friends, then yes it seems slow. How grindy it is will depend on the mission and its objectives.

Tunguska wrote:
- massive luck fest
No, you have skills and abilities for bowing chances.

Tunguska wrote:
- limited access to healing/recovery (no rest action, limited/unreliable revival mechanic, looks like players could just end up sitting out multiple rounds- no fun). This in turn means that others could get way too far ahead. Also no XP for healing.
There is just very few information about healing. Whe know there is a skill "Bam: Heal", there are events that heal and there will be items and potions that heal. I hope it will be balanced. But imho limited healing is not necessarily bad. Perhaps Wounds will lead to play more careful and makes you aware of behaviours and skills you hadn't found useful when you were the fully healed invincible berserker slayer.

Tunguska wrote:
- Unbalanced XP gains and no catch up mechanics. This was covered elsewhere and people said that a good team would need to cooperate to avoid players racing ahead. However, the demo made it look like the team might be too busy 'fire fighting' to pass over kills (and xp) and allow others to catch up. Perhaps it needs a mechanic for sharing xp?
That's a slight weakness, but good team play will negate this. Also you can houserule xp distribution.

Tunguska wrote:
-shadow/stealth mechanic seems a little under-developed. Thematically I would like to see classes which benefit from fighting or healing in the light (paladin and priests healing. Barbarians rage/fire).
There's still time to tweak and playtest rules. There already has been a change to shadow mode during the KS campaign. Bonus for fighting in light would be a very cool feature though.

Tunguska wrote:
-no indication of how character persistence will work
Right.

Tunguska wrote:
-Rules generally seem a bit undercooked for a game at this stage?
There's still time to tweak and playtest.

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Jeff K
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Well, to each his own, but here is what you actually said:

Exo Desta wrote:
I think this is the game that pulls back the curtain and reveals the warts of the CMoN machine.


That seems a bit on the hyperbolic side, from my view. You could have simply said, as you did above, "Yeah, I think this game will be half-baked." That seems a lot more reasonable.
 
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Max Maloney
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Tunguska wrote:
But here are my concerns:

- is there enough decision making?

Yes, there is plenty.

Quote:
- gameplay looks slow and grindy

Agreed.

Quote:
- massive luck fest

Disagree. The more dice you roll, the more you can expect the results to average out over time. You can plan for risk/reward easily in a system like this, then respond when results are far from the expected outcome with a change in strategy.

Quote:
- limited access to healing/recovery (no rest action, limited/unreliable revival mechanic, looks like players could just end up sitting out multiple rounds- no fun). This in turn means that others could get way too far ahead. Also no XP for healing.

Stylistic/personal taste. This may or may not be for you, but it doesn't seem like a flawed design.

Quote:
- Unbalanced XP gains and no catch up mechanics.

Same as Zombicide and, in fact, plenty of other games. Stylistic/personal taste once again.

Quote:
-shadow/stealth mechanic seems a little under-developed.

Agreed

Quote:
-no indication of how character persistence will work

??? This is very explicitly described in the rules.

Quote:
-Rules generally seem a bit undercooked for a game at this stage?

No idea where this comes from. The rulebook is complete and makes sense as written. It seems to be doing what Guillotine designed it to do. Once again, maybe this is not to your personal taste.
 
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Eric Christensen
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Internutt wrote:
Tunguska wrote:
Interesting, thank you. I hadn't spotted any more info on gameplay changes- do you have a link?


The only change to gameplay was adding a story mode and a second campaign.

Otherwise the rules in the gameplay video and found within the already released rulebook are the exact same.


They changed shadow mode to give you a free action when entering shadow mode. I don't think that's reflected in the gameplay videos.
 
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Tunguska Incident
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Well they have my $1. I will make my final call if and when they release more information on the story mode and hopefully some more gameplay footage.

It's a great value package for the minis alone but I would like to be confident that it will be worth getting to the table before I commit. I have enough GW minis languishing in storage boxes already...
 
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Alexander
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Anyone else find it curious that you only get 1 XP per defeated enemy regardless of whether they are a minion, boss, monster, etc?...
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