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B-17: Queen of the Skies» Forums » Rules

Subject: Defensive fire & BIP effects rss

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Rob Koch
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I have 2 questions:

1) If the bombardier uses the nose gun to defend in the same turn as the bombs drop is there a penalty? I'm assuming that the abstraction is that he can do both without penalty.

2) If you roll a BIP effect from flak do you still continue to roll for shell effects or is it like a "Walking Hits" result in that it negates all other effects? I'm assuming it's the worst... you keep taking hits.

Thanks!

Rob
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Jamie Vantries
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Been a while but iirc
1) I could swear that the bombardier can't fire on the turn he drops the bombs. (don't quote me on that though)

2) You actually survived a BIP?! Impressive. Sorry I don't have any actual useful input.
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Magnus K
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1. There are no penalties in the original rules. The bombardier may use the nose gun during the same turn.

2. If the BIP is in an area which brings you down, all other effects are negated, but if the hit is in the nose or waist for example you take all possible damage in that compartment, so you'll have to check the table for oxygen fires and heat out for instance.
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Rob Koch
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Here's the example for BIP:

- Using optional rule for continued flak for target zone (flak before fighters on return leg).

1) Entering target zone:
- No flak rolled due to poor weather
- Survived fighters
- Drop bombs

2) Turn around in target zone:
- Medium Flak rolled due to poor weather
-- 2 Hits:
--- Hit #1: BIP (Bomb bay)
--- No crew present, no KIAs
--- Bomb Release - N/E (bombs already gone)
--- Bombs - N/E (bombs already gone)
--- Rubber Rafts (Hope we don't have to ditch)
--- Bomb Bay Doors (inoperable, but bombs gone)
--- Superficial
--- Control Cables, 1st hit - N/E

--- Hit #2: Radio Room
--- Radio out

- Survived fighter waves (including extra from BIP penalty)

3) Delayed in target zone due to BIP:
- Light flak, no hits
- Survived fighter waves (including extra from BIP penalty)

4) Next zone: shot down a by some FW190s.

So the question is should the Second hit have occurred since I had a BIP in the same turn?

If a fighter rolls for 3 shells and the effects are: hit(wing), hit(waist), hit(walking hits), then as I read the rules only the "walking hits" will get applied and not the other two.
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Richard Morey
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I would still roll the other hits. As in your case, there were no crew injuries, but what if one of the other hits inflicted a crew injury, or started a fuel tank fire? In the latter case, you probably wouldn't have moved on to the next zone.
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Jim P
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Rob,
If the BIP does Not bring down the bomber then yes continue with the second flak hit. Basically the same as a fuel tank hit that doesn't explode the plane. If the BIP takes down the plane then there is no reason to continue rolling. Though "I" would roll the extra damage as it might influence the minuscule chance a crew-member might have to escape the aircraft.

With the Bombardier firing and dropping bombs the game rules don't disallow it and there is no penalty. Though many of us will not have the Bombardier shoot in the target zone. But that is our own "House Rule" to say.

And the walking hit replaces all hits from that one planes attack. I always roll up my hits before resolving them so I don't have to erase my entry's.
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Rob Koch
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Thanks to all for your comments!

I understand thematically the "walking hits" replacing the regular plane hits since it is a strafing attack essentially. And I also felt that the BIP was just an extra unfortunate results as well and wouldn't stop hits from other parts of the aircraft.

As of the bombardier not defending... I understand the abstracting in that the fighter cover might not be right over the target and he would have time to reacquire the bomb target, but it felt wrong in doing so as he would be too rattled from the encounter.

I'll probably play the house rule as well just like the flak rule on turnaround felt right.

Just trying to get my rules straight before the next sortie! Crew on standby and ready for assignment!
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Lou Correia
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I had a similar question about defensive fire in the target zone. You can read the discussion here:
https://boardgamegeek.com/thread/1583209/chin-guns-target-zo...
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Rob Koch
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Thanks for the link Lou! Somehow I managed to miss that one ... whistle
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AMOS BURKE
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robkoch2112 wrote:
Here's the example for BIP:

- Using optional rule for continued flak for target zone (flak before fighters on return leg).

1) Entering target zone:
- No flak rolled due to poor weather
- Survived fighters
- Drop bombs

2) Turn around in target zone:
- Medium Flak rolled due to poor weather

So you roll again for flak in target zone I have only roll for flak before bomb run
Just checked example of play in rules ,just one flak attack
Amos
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Jim P
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420017 wrote:
robkoch2112 wrote:
Here's the example for BIP:

- Using optional rule for continued flak for target zone (flak before fighters on return leg).

1) Entering target zone:
- No flak rolled due to poor weather
- Survived fighters
- Drop bombs

2) Turn around in target zone:
- Medium Flak rolled due to poor weather

So you roll again for flak in target zone I have only roll for flak before bomb run
Just checked example of play in rules ,just one flak attack
Amos


The return flak in the target zone is a house rule. The way I play it is whatever the flak is going in is one less coming out. So "Heavy" Flak becomes "Medium" and so on.

Reasoning.
- Flak on back side, the cities were ringed in Flak batteries as the Germans never knew where the bombers were coming from
- Less intense Flak, The batteries were still trying to hit the bombers before they dropped their loads on the city.

Jim
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Rob Koch
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Amos,
I used the "house rule" by accident the first time because I followed a flow (in target zone? Y-> roll/resolve flak-> roll/resolve fighters).

Shortly thereafter I found the "official" house rule that had flak before waves on the turn around (continued flak essentially) ... but I roll for the effectiveness instead of lowering the intensity. This means it could get better, stay the same, or worse instead of the lowering the level by 1.

I figure the Germans won't stop firing until they have to... Once the flak is resolved you do the regular fighter checks.

This I took from the campaign rules but for personal games I just roll instead of lowering as I like the chance that heavy flak will become light (or none!).

I have toyed with the idea of adding 1 to the second roll to reduce the chance of no flak due to continued fire.

-Rob
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