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Subject: Hit Calculation rss

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Chris Cornaghie
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What damage is inflicted in the following situations

The Japanese hold Guadacanal with a 9-12 army and a 10-10 air unit. The US attacks with two 12-12 CV, one 16-16 BB and a 9-8 CA, all stacked and two hexes distant. If the Japanese are surprised, the US fires first, apportions the loss to the air unit, and the Japanese fires back, if able. If not the firing is simultaneous, but in any event the Japanese can only hit the CA and the US cannot hit the ground unit as it was defended in the air/naval phase and is a one step anyway. So far so good

But what if the Japanese is able to react and send the Yamato 18-18 into the hex, and the Akagi 12-12 three hexes away. No surprise, so firing is simultaneous, the US get a 1X for 24 hits, the US surface ships are not in the battle hex; the US can choose the Akagi and air unit or the Yamato,but the Japanese also get 1X for 40 hits, can they choose both CV and the BB? If so, what about a Japanese stack in a battle hex with one air unit, and 4 surface units; they can only hit one enemy air/CV unit, but what about the enemy surface ships not in the battle hex, but attached to the CV's?
 
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Francisco Colmenares
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cctenn wrote:
What damage is inflicted in the following situations

The Japanese hold Guadacanal with a 9-12 army and a 10-10 air unit. The US attacks with two 12-12 CV, one 16-16 BB and a 9-8 CA, all stacked and two hexes distant. If the Japanese are surprised, the US fires first, apportions the loss to the air unit, and the Japanese fires back, if able. If not the firing is simultaneous, but in any event the Japanese can only hit the CA and the US cannot hit the ground unit as it was defended in the air/naval phase and is a one step anyway. So far so good

Correct

cctenn wrote:
But what if the Japanese is able to react and send the Yamato 18-18 into the hex, and the Akagi 12-12 three hexes away. No surprise, so firing is simultaneous, the US get a 1X for 24 hits, the US surface ships are not in the battle hex; the US can choose the Akagi and air unit or the Yamato,but the Japanese also get 1X for 40 hits, can they choose both CV and the BB?

Yes, because Japan has two air capable units present in the battle, so they can hit both carriers and the surface units.

cctenn wrote:
If so, what about a Japanese stack in a battle hex with one air unit, and 4 surface units; they can only hit one enemy air/CV unit, but what about the enemy surface ships not in the battle hex, but attached to the CV's?

They are part of the battle even if not part of the Battle hex, but the rules do not confer immunity to non-CV units outside a battle hex. Per 9.2.F.4 Last line:

9.2.F.4 wrote:
Non air capable naval units can always be the target of hits generated during an air naval battle.

Thus only one carrier can be hit and the escorts can receive damage. HOWEVER: Since you must reduce all units before eliminating any, the fact that only one carrier can be it means the other naval units can only be reduced, not eliminated (Unless you roll a critical).
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Chris Cornaghie
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That was my conclusion, but it does create an unusual situation, in that a stack of defending surface units, protected by a single air unit, can inflict significant damage on an attacking surface fleet not in the battle hex,but which is escorting CV units. The CV units are limited in the damage that can be received by the number of enemy air units, but the escorts are not.

So we have the following real possibility, the Japanese defending say Saipan have the Yamato, Hiei, Nagato and Kongo and one 8-10 air unit. The US attack with 2 Cv, and 4 surface units, the CV's can only receive one hit, as the Japanese have only one air unit, but the US surface ships can all receive one hit, and the Japanese only suffer hits delivered by the US carriers. If the Japanese did not have the air unit, they may not damage any US ships. If the US attacks with only CV's, only one hit received.

 
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Ferro Ostil
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The lesson here, as always for these damage/hit calculations, is that if you don't have enough air units, you're at a serious disadvantage. It's all about the air/CV units. Without them: futility.
 
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Mark Herman
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cctenn wrote:
That was my conclusion, but it does create an unusual situation, in that a stack of defending surface units, protected by a single air unit, can inflict significant damage on an attacking surface fleet not in the battle hex,but which is escorting CV units. The CV units are limited in the damage that can be received by the number of enemy air units, but the escorts are not.

So we have the following real possibility, the Japanese defending say Saipan have the Yamato, Hiei, Nagato and Kongo and one 8-10 air unit. The US attack with 2 Cv, and 4 surface units, the CV's can only receive one hit, as the Japanese have only one air unit, but the US surface ships can all receive one hit, and the Japanese only suffer hits delivered by the US carriers. If the Japanese did not have the air unit, they may not damage any US ships. If the US attacks with only CV's, only one hit received.



I am not sure how much you have played the game, but while I guess what you have described is possible it is an extremely poor play for the sake of making an extremely poor play. I never stop someone from doing something against their self interest.

The escort rule has a limited utility to protect a single carrier raid. In the example given, if the Allied surface ships could not make it to the battle hex then you should not include them as they are just targets. What you are essentially modeling with your described tactic is Savo Island, where the Allied surface ships are being surprised by the Japanese battlewagons.

If you leave out the Allied surface ships that cannot reach the battle hex you get the same result where the CVs can cause some damage, but in return only one CV could be hit by the 8-10 for one step of damage. Now if you are going into the teeth of a large number of air units, then the escorts can be of some utility, but not in your example.

Except for the rare situation, only send surface ships if they can reach the battle hex. If you cannot reach the battle hex with the surface ships then it is probably too deep in the enemy position to send them in the first place.



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Chris Cornaghie
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I've only played EOTS 10-11 times, (it is really a great game) and have learned something each time. This has come up more than once though, usually as previously described, the Japanese hold a base with an air unit and several surface units. The US attacks with CV's and a BB to help cover the CV's if the Japanese react with other air units. The last time, the Japanese rolled a 9 and could not react, so the US with surprise hit all the surface units and blasted the air unit, so no damage to the CV's could occur, the Japanese then fired back with only the surface units, could not damage the Cv's but damaged the escorting BB, which had not fired in the first place. This did seem a little odd, but in any event I think it falls under the old saying "Doctor it hurts when I do this, -well, don't do that!"
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